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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!

215 replies

WeeBisom · 05/09/2020 19:12

There's a Facebook post doing the rounds that promises to explain transgender identity. Unfortunately the explanation is very poor and just leaves me with more questions. Seriously, this is the best they can do? I'm going to break this thing down.

Our helpful guide is a "cis" man. And his basic premise is he FEELS like a man but he doesn't know why! He doesn't like any stereotypical guy stuff! (I find it really funny that he says he likes music, cooking and the arts, all things which are incredibly male dominated.) Ok, but I don't think activities ought to be gendered anyway. You do you. You're still a bloke if you like knitting.

But then he tells us it's not physical either. He has this man feeling, but it's not because he has a penis. He then tells us that if you put his brain in a robot body his 'essence" would still "feel male'. He then informs us he has an acute lack of imaginative power and "literally" cannot imagine what being any other gender would feel like. And this is supposed to persuade me that being trans is a real thing.

The problem with running thought experiments, like the brain transplant scenario, is that you take the risk of others just simply not sharing your intuition. And this is what has happened here. If you put my brain in a robot body, god knows how I would feel. God even knows if it would still be me in any meaningful sense. I'm very much like David Hume in that I don't get the impression I have a 'me' "essence." I don't think my personality or 'self' is intrinsically gendered. And more to the point...the biggest conflict is this guy super strongly 'feel's male (so much he can't even imagine what it would be like to be female!) and I don't share this feeling at all. I don't 'feel' female at all. I find it very easy to imagine being in a male body. There is just an irreconcilable clash, here. He has a lack of imagination and a very strong feeling he labels 'male'. I have a good imagination and zero gender feelings. So, er , how is he supposed to persuade me?

He then tells me that he's a man but he has no clue WHY he's a man.He surmises he is a man because "of something ephemeral." Well, now we are just getting into theology. I have deeply religious friends who are baffled at my atheism. It is so confusing to their worldview that some of them even think I do think God exists but I choose to deny his existence. And when I ask them why they believe in God they just know. They can't point to anything rational or tangible, or even coherently explain it - they feel it. But unless you share these deep special feelings there can be no persuasion. There's nothing rational here - no evidence, no argumentation, no logic. Just an appeal to inexplicable feelings.

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:43

My identity as a person was denied.

You see. Natural allies. Current TRAs are fucking it up for women and for trans-sexuals.

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 01:45

Yes, but doesn't work if you're trans

Why not?

See the bit you cut off

You presumably mean dress as you want only if you accept you aren't trans?

Seems can dress as you like, do as you please, as long as you accept you will only ever be c * s and nothing else

OldCrone · 07/09/2020 01:50

Seems can dress as you like, do as you please, as long as you accept you will only ever be cs and nothing else*

Why? Hardly anyone is cs. If you don't identify as cs, you're not c*s, so why should anyone have to 'accept' that they are?

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:57

It's not women on here who are pushing 'cis'.

You haven't responded to any of my posts about my experience of sex/ gender role.

If you genuinely care about trans people why don't you have anything to say about what I have shared? I've been open and shared really personal stuff. According to stonewall I'm trans. Why do you have nothing to say about my personal struggle with gender incongruence?

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 02:05

It's not women on here who are pushing 'cis'

No, but it's what the OP is about.

According to stonewall I'm trans. Why do you have nothing to say about my personal struggle with gender incongruence?

OK, if you're struggling with yourself and have difficulty knowing where you fit in, what you are, fair enough, you know if you're genuinely trans or not, not me.
Not much else to say really! Hope you find out who you are, what you are soon for your own peace of mind

DixieFlatline · 07/09/2020 02:10

@Quaagars

Be gender non-conforming. Be a butch lesbian in sensible shoes. Or a straight woman with no makeup short hairs, unisex clothes and a job in engineering, call yourself Bob if you want

What if you know you're not gender non conforming, that you're not a lesbian or a straight woman with no make up and short hair?
(Not sure where being a straight woman with short hair and unisex clothes and likes engineering has to do with anything, all those perfectly fine things for women to do or be!) None of that makes you any less of a woman.

What if you know you're the Messiah?
NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 02:17

I know exactly who I am. I always have.

Others imposed lots of stuff on me that i was deeply uncomfortable with. They refused to accept who I was or even try to find out. Gender was enforced.

I would like to ask you a question or 2.

Why are you bringing up things on here that no one else ever would?
Eg electric shock treatment.

If you believe biology exists, then don't you think that male and female have different needs in terms of medicine, privacy, safety, and equality of opportunity eg in sport?

No one here has any issue with a person who feels X inside, wants to dress or be called whatever they like. All for it.
The issue is when they feeling over rides biological reality.

Not much else to say?

Interesting.

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 02:36

Why are you bringing up things on here that no one else ever would
Eg electric shock treatment

I was just curious as to what would be acceptable
Seeing as being a trans man earlier in the thread didn't exist
Then people said you could be trans, but only as gender non conforming people, always still knowing your own biology and that's all there is.
Seems that's not the case for c * s or trans people though.
Just wondered what else there was if people can't easily be c * s or trans, what else should they do?
What other solutions are they?
As it's not a case of "just go play with dolls or trucks", sometimes you're a girl who loves playing with trucks/Lego/whatever the hell else is deemed boys stuff but still feel girl inside.

Was just wondering

BlackWaveComing · 07/09/2020 02:46

No such thing as c*s.

You're expecting us to accept your woo terms before continuing the discussion.

No.

.

WeeBisom · 07/09/2020 02:50

The problem is we are expected to believe that if someone feels like something then they ARE that thing. But I don’t see any reason why I should accept that. I think if a man feels like a woman then that doesn’t make him a woman. I’ve never been given a good explanation why feelings about this override reality.

OP posts:
Quaagars · 07/09/2020 03:01

No such thing as c s*

For you.

BlackWaveComing · 07/09/2020 03:17

@Quaagars

No such thing as c s*

For you.

Onus is on you, the one making the extraordinary claim, to prove c*s is a material, verifiable thing. The onus is not on me to accept it.
Winesalot · 07/09/2020 03:58

The problem is we are expected to believe that if someone feels like something then they ARE that thing.

To me, this is the issue. That this is being written into law. That people who question this ‘feeling’ are hateful.

If people aren’t denying biology, exactly why should transwomen expect to be called women? and have the rights that women need due to their biology?

Because they feel they are women? And that everyone else must act as if they too believe they are exactly that. Not a transwoman. But a woman.

In fact, if twitter was real life, they insist people believe they are ’female’ and all that entails. And most of the time, it seems, it is because they believe that they don’t feel ‘male’ therefore must be the other sex.

Instead of just feeling like a human with male sex characteristics but looking, dressing, having interests that are unique to them.

midgebabe · 07/09/2020 07:47

Everyone should be able to live as themselves without treatment ( if you need treatment -then you are not being allowed to live as you but are trying to persuade people to see you differently so that you can live as you )

You should not deny what your body is, nor ask others to do so nor be expected to do so

feminism 101 in my book

StrangeLookingParasite · 07/09/2020 07:52

Seeing as being a trans man earlier in the thread didn't exist

Please stop lying.

midgebabe · 07/09/2020 07:54

That was to quaggers who keeps making out as if we won't accept people as they are, when being accepted as we are pretty much sums up feminism to me

It's just as we are means body as well as soul because its our bodies that are the trigger for all our problems be that menstruation or sex abuse

Kit19 · 07/09/2020 08:14

Thank you Strange, i thought I had missed something

No one said TM didn’t exist at all, absolutely no one

What people asked was - why do there seem to be a lot fewer women coming out as TM in middle age compared to men who come out as TW in middle age? and why is this situation completely reversed for teenagers?

Winesalot · 07/09/2020 08:20

What people asked was - why do there seem to be a lot fewer women coming out as TM in middle age compared to men

And it was a very valid question, and went unanswered.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/09/2020 08:31

And it was a very valid question, and went unanswered.

It did. TBF some people interpreted it as "why aren't any middle aged women transitioning to male at all" and answered that instead.

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 08:34

went unanswered
Try reading the thread, people did answer why that might be the case? Or was it not an answer you liked?
Also just because you don't know any doesn't mean they don't exist.
Dido linked to several earlier in the thread but apparently weren't the "right" sort of trans man so got dismissed out of hand.
I get why you (general you) would rather pretend they didn't exist though and that's fair enough.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/09/2020 08:36

What other solutions are they?

Get to grips with reality and express yourself however you want as a gender non conforming member of your sex. We shouldn't have ever pretended that changing it was possible, or that it's a thing that people can be "born in the wrong body".

EdgeOfACoin · 07/09/2020 08:54

I have rtft and I still don't understand what a gender identity is.

I understand from the article that it is not down to hobbies and interests. It is not dictated by biology. It is not down to what clothing I wear.

If someone erased my memories and lived experiences and put my brain in the body of a robot or a male, I genuinely don't know how I would feel. What characteristics, thought processes or behaviours would indicate if I had a male or female gender identity?

As an example, I am not gay. I know I am not gay because I am not physically attracted to other women. I have zero interest in having an intimate relationship with another woman. I am physically attracted to men. If necessary, I could break these feelings down further and explain precisely what I am attracted to. The observable behaviours I display that may help other people discern my heterosexuality are that I have only ever dated men and am married to a man.

So - if I can explain precisely what makes me straight, I would appreciate what exactly I need to consider when deciding what my gender identity is.

BovaryX · 07/09/2020 09:06

@Quaagars

the females who would have transitioned had it been a 'thing' when we were young - a lot of us are on MN. We just don't count, because we don't deny biology and we recognise our feelings about what it means to be a woman are informed by a lifetime immersed in a sexist culture

Being trans has always "been a thing" though. It just wasn't something we knew much about a few decades ago if we were not trans (talking about say the 80s here)
You talk as if trans people just suddenly popped into existence recently.
They've always been there.
We just know more about being trans now, more aware.

Can you explain what you mean by this? Are you claiming that trans people have existed all through history? That this is not a recent phenomenon? If so, can you give some examples?
EdgeOfACoin · 07/09/2020 09:07

Sorry, it would be clearer for me to say:

I would appreciate knowing exactly what it is I need to consider when determining my gender identity.

midgebabe · 07/09/2020 09:11

It's not the case that we see more trans people through greater awareness, it seems more that greater awareness coupled with very vague definitions has led to more people using trans to explain themselves

Many people would have no trouble with that provided the next steps ..making you more like yourself through surgery and medication and the downplaying of biology wasn't the default