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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!

215 replies

WeeBisom · 05/09/2020 19:12

There's a Facebook post doing the rounds that promises to explain transgender identity. Unfortunately the explanation is very poor and just leaves me with more questions. Seriously, this is the best they can do? I'm going to break this thing down.

Our helpful guide is a "cis" man. And his basic premise is he FEELS like a man but he doesn't know why! He doesn't like any stereotypical guy stuff! (I find it really funny that he says he likes music, cooking and the arts, all things which are incredibly male dominated.) Ok, but I don't think activities ought to be gendered anyway. You do you. You're still a bloke if you like knitting.

But then he tells us it's not physical either. He has this man feeling, but it's not because he has a penis. He then tells us that if you put his brain in a robot body his 'essence" would still "feel male'. He then informs us he has an acute lack of imaginative power and "literally" cannot imagine what being any other gender would feel like. And this is supposed to persuade me that being trans is a real thing.

The problem with running thought experiments, like the brain transplant scenario, is that you take the risk of others just simply not sharing your intuition. And this is what has happened here. If you put my brain in a robot body, god knows how I would feel. God even knows if it would still be me in any meaningful sense. I'm very much like David Hume in that I don't get the impression I have a 'me' "essence." I don't think my personality or 'self' is intrinsically gendered. And more to the point...the biggest conflict is this guy super strongly 'feel's male (so much he can't even imagine what it would be like to be female!) and I don't share this feeling at all. I don't 'feel' female at all. I find it very easy to imagine being in a male body. There is just an irreconcilable clash, here. He has a lack of imagination and a very strong feeling he labels 'male'. I have a good imagination and zero gender feelings. So, er , how is he supposed to persuade me?

He then tells me that he's a man but he has no clue WHY he's a man.He surmises he is a man because "of something ephemeral." Well, now we are just getting into theology. I have deeply religious friends who are baffled at my atheism. It is so confusing to their worldview that some of them even think I do think God exists but I choose to deny his existence. And when I ask them why they believe in God they just know. They can't point to anything rational or tangible, or even coherently explain it - they feel it. But unless you share these deep special feelings there can be no persuasion. There's nothing rational here - no evidence, no argumentation, no logic. Just an appeal to inexplicable feelings.

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
OP posts:
OldCrone · 06/09/2020 17:53

The not having children bit may well be that a ftm person may well find the idea of being pregnant repugnant- given that being pregnant is a uniquely female experience.

Consciously or unconsciously an ftm person might have avoided pregnancy.

How do you explain all those pregnant trans men? Like Freddy the seahorse who got a GRC and immediately came off testosterone and tried to get pregnant. Obviously wasn't that repugnant an experience.

Anyway, my point wasn't whether or not they had had children. It was the disparity between 'trans children' being mainly female (many of them same-sex attracted), and late transitioning adults being mainly male (mostly having been in heterosexual relationships).

What is your explanation for this difference in the numbers? The most recent figures from GIDS show about 2.5 times as many girls being referred compared to boys. We should see the same ratio amongst adult transitioners shouldn't we? 5 late transitioning women for every 2 late transitioning men. Since all those women would have transitioned earlier in life if it had been more acceptable, wouldn't they?

DidoLamenting · 06/09/2020 18:11

How do you explain all those pregnant trans men? Like Freddy the seahorse who got a GRC and immediately came off testosterone and tried to get pregnant. Obviously wasn't that repugnant an experience

Er everyone is different?

I have posted examples and interviews with late transitioning trans men. Some were lesbian before transitioning; some were heterosexual; some had given birth to children.

So far as the figures- I don't know. I'm sure if there would be any accurate record. I'm not even sure what your point is. It didn't take me very long to find the examples I posted. I'm sure there are more.

Are you (general you) so troubled by the idea of late transitioning ftm? By the idea not everyone one is like you (general you) so that the females who would have transitioned had it been a 'thing' when we were young - a lot of us are on MN ?

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 18:34

How do you explain all those pregnant trans men?

Not all people are the same?
At least now it's being acknowledged that there are trans men with children now though with that comment, as earlier people were implying there weren't any, or at least not many.
Also doesn't make sense that just because you were aware of "precisely zero" who were female and trans, or other people on here who may say the same, that there weren't any.
The in heterosexual relationships doesn't make sense either - a lot of people who are gay or lesbian are in heterosexual relationships before figuring out who they are, so it stands to reason that of course that could be the same for people who are trans as well.

midgebabe · 06/09/2020 19:17

everyone is different

Exactly, the only thing women have in common is basic biology. Everything else is not dictated by being a woman . It's orthogonal. You don't need to identify as not a woman to not want :feel any of the things people associate with women

If you decide you are a man who has a baby you are saying to other women that being a woman is more than biology

Which is basically being incredibly offensive to many /most women who reject that idea

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 19:35

everyone is different

Exactly, the only thing women have in common is basic biology

Confused

Why are you going off on a tangent about things that women have in common and we are only our biology again?
We were discussing where all the trans men were, people were doubting there were many if at all, and then "how do you explain trans men like Freddie?"
Which, yes, because we're all different? As in people are all different, we're not all the same?
Where does your comment fit in? It's....random.
Yes, we know people think only things women have in common with each other is biology.
That's not what we were talking about.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 19:38

If you decide you are a man who has a baby you are saying to other women that being a woman is more than biology

To some it IS more though. Should they hide that, themselves, just to make you and others more comfortable?

midgebabe · 06/09/2020 19:44

Your argument seems to be that everyone is different so a trans man getting pregnant is logical

Which is completely illogical if you assume that the differences between men and woman is about reproductive biology only

The assumption you make when you say that it's ok for transmen to be happy and try to get pregnant is if you are saying that being a trans man is different from having male biology. Which is then saying that man/woman is not about biology , which is hurtful and offensive and repressive

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 19:47

So are we at least decided that there are actually older trans men out there now, they do actually exist and they're not all teenagers?

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 19:48

It's a bugger we can't talk about this sort of thing openly, because autoandrophilia is a thing and it develops fairly young and it's fuelled by the internet, and it's indicative of society massively failing girls.

We should be able to discuss this without risk of deletion. Why do you say it's indicative of society failing girls?

midgebabe · 06/09/2020 19:52

To some it may be more , but the only common thing that identifies a woman that all women can relate to is biology

you are forcing me to identify as trans simply because to me if woman is not biology but something else then I am not a woman

Yet the only way the world would see me as not woman would be if I had surgery. Which I have considered.

your none biological definition forces me down a surgical route that is dangerous just so I can fit into a box that most closely fits me

Which is conversion therapy.

Which is why I love the people here who take me as I am , completely, without the need to change anything

mummmy2017 · 06/09/2020 19:53

All I could think of reading this is, does anyone want to tell Gordon Ramsey that he is a female.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 19:55

you are forcing me to identify as trans simply because to me if woman is not biology but something else then I am not a woman

No, I'm not.
You're still just as much a woman as woman is biology, it never stopped being biology too - just because for others there is more, why does that make you any less of a woman?
You know you are. Your biology says you are too.

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 19:56

Are you (general you) so troubled by the idea of late transitioning ftm?

No. I am troubled by the ever increasing numbers of teenage girls who are identifying as transgender and making irreversible changes to their bodies before they have the experience and maturity to understand why they think they are transgender.

My point, which I thought I had made clear, is that if these teenage girls are 'really transgender' (whatever that means), then there would be more mature, middle aged transitioning women than mature, middle aged transitioning men, because it appears transgenderism affects males and females in an approximate ratio of 2 (male):5 (female).

My perception is that it's more common in older men than older women. I think the ratio of people with GRCs is approximately 2 male for every 1 female, so more males transition than females according to that measure. There is no reason for the GRC statistics not to be representative of the wider population who identify as transgender.

By the idea not everyone one is like you (general you) so that the females who would have transitioned had it been a 'thing' when we were young - a lot of us are on MN ?

No idea what you're trying to say here. I don't think 'everyone is like me'. What an odd thing to say.

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 19:59

a lot of people who are gay or lesbian are in heterosexual relationships before figuring out who they are

And yet, according to many TRAs, children 'know' they are transgender at the age of 3 or 4.

But if it takes time and maturity for people to figure out who they are, then obviously it's not true that children 'know' they are transgender at a very young age. They only think they are, so they should be given the time to grow up and reach full maturity (in terms of brain maturity as well as sexual maturity) and figure out who they really are before making irreversible changes to their bodies.

DidoLamenting · 06/09/2020 20:07

@midgebabe

Your argument seems to be that everyone is different so a trans man getting pregnant is logical

Which is completely illogical if you assume that the differences between men and woman is about reproductive biology only

The assumption you make when you say that it's ok for transmen to be happy and try to get pregnant is if you are saying that being a trans man is different from having male biology. Which is then saying that man/woman is not about biology , which is hurtful and offensive and repressive

I don't find the existence of Freddy hurtful or offensive or repressive.

I find it bizarre and I don't understand what is going on inside Freddy's head.

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 20:08

@Quaagars

So are we at least decided that there are actually older trans men out there now, they do actually exist and they're not all teenagers?
Read the thread. Nobody has said older trans men don't exist.

But there should be 2 or 3 times as many older transmen as there are older transwomen. This doesn't seem to be the case. But if you have statistics that say transition in later life is much more common amongst women than men, I'm prepared to be proved wrong.

midgebabe · 06/09/2020 20:10

Because if woman is anything more than Biology, then know that is not me.

I can only accept being woman if it is a biological definition, any other definition excludes me.

Logically I can't cope with a definition of women that is female biology and:/ or something else. My something else is male.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 20:12

a lot of people who are gay or lesbian are in heterosexual relationships before figuring out who they are

And yet, according to many TRAs, children 'know' they are transgender at the age of 3 or 4

Why can't there be both?
Maybe some children do "know" there's something different, but that doesn't mean that there can't be adults who haven't figured out who or what they are until they're older - like I said, there's been plenty of gay and lesbians in heterosexual relationships before figuring out who they are so stands to reason the same will probably apply to trans people too...
You make it sound like because some people know who they are when they're younger, that automatically means there can't be any older ones.

midgebabe · 06/09/2020 20:12

I don't find the existence of anyone hurtful or offensive, I find the ideas they express hurtful and offensive

The idea that woman is more than biology is hurtful to me

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 20:12

The only definition of 'woman' which makes sense is the one which has been in use for centuries: adult female human (with any personality).

midgebabe · 06/09/2020 20:13

I knew by age of 7 or 8 that I was a boy

Biology disagreed

Flapjak · 06/09/2020 20:14

But we dont feel male or female, we just are due to the body we have and how we are socialised into the male/female role. We become men and women through a process of socialisation and gendered expectations of the sex role , some of us are more happy to align with this and others less so, its all very dependent on individual 'PERSONALITY' . The brain, like the heart, lungs is not gendered, it might be bigger on average in size if you are male but that is it. If someone had found a male brain that was intrinsically different from a female brain dont you think they would be shouting it from the rooftops!!

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 20:14

You make it sound like because some people know who they are when they're younger, that automatically means there can't be any older ones.

Where did I say that I think 'some people know who they are when they're younger'? I was agreeing with you that it takes time and maturity for people to figure out who they are.

DidoLamenting · 06/09/2020 20:16

My point, which I thought I had made clear, is that if these teenage girls are 'really transgender' (whatever that means), then there would be more mature, middle aged transitioning women than mature, middle aged transitioning men, because it appears transgenderism affects males and females in an approximate ratio of 2 (male):5 (female)

Your point doesn’t follow at all. Firstly we don't know what the figures are there may be any number of reasons why older women aren't transitioning or secondly they might be transitioning but making no fuss about it.

No idea what you're trying to say here. I don't think 'everyone is like me'. What an odd thing to say

I wasn't addressing you personally. I was referring to the idea which is being pushed on this thread that there are far fewer older trans men because the females who would have transitioned had it been a 'thing' when we were young - a lot of us are on MN.

Do some posters have a problem with other people being different from them? Or with the idea that older trans men exist? That's what's coming across.

ErrolTheDragon · 06/09/2020 20:17

The idea that woman is more than biology is hurtful to me

I'd have said the problem is the idea that "woman" is less than biology - an unverifiable, subjective feeling.

Biology isn't all there is to being a woman but it's a necessary requirement.

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