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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!

215 replies

WeeBisom · 05/09/2020 19:12

There's a Facebook post doing the rounds that promises to explain transgender identity. Unfortunately the explanation is very poor and just leaves me with more questions. Seriously, this is the best they can do? I'm going to break this thing down.

Our helpful guide is a "cis" man. And his basic premise is he FEELS like a man but he doesn't know why! He doesn't like any stereotypical guy stuff! (I find it really funny that he says he likes music, cooking and the arts, all things which are incredibly male dominated.) Ok, but I don't think activities ought to be gendered anyway. You do you. You're still a bloke if you like knitting.

But then he tells us it's not physical either. He has this man feeling, but it's not because he has a penis. He then tells us that if you put his brain in a robot body his 'essence" would still "feel male'. He then informs us he has an acute lack of imaginative power and "literally" cannot imagine what being any other gender would feel like. And this is supposed to persuade me that being trans is a real thing.

The problem with running thought experiments, like the brain transplant scenario, is that you take the risk of others just simply not sharing your intuition. And this is what has happened here. If you put my brain in a robot body, god knows how I would feel. God even knows if it would still be me in any meaningful sense. I'm very much like David Hume in that I don't get the impression I have a 'me' "essence." I don't think my personality or 'self' is intrinsically gendered. And more to the point...the biggest conflict is this guy super strongly 'feel's male (so much he can't even imagine what it would be like to be female!) and I don't share this feeling at all. I don't 'feel' female at all. I find it very easy to imagine being in a male body. There is just an irreconcilable clash, here. He has a lack of imagination and a very strong feeling he labels 'male'. I have a good imagination and zero gender feelings. So, er , how is he supposed to persuade me?

He then tells me that he's a man but he has no clue WHY he's a man.He surmises he is a man because "of something ephemeral." Well, now we are just getting into theology. I have deeply religious friends who are baffled at my atheism. It is so confusing to their worldview that some of them even think I do think God exists but I choose to deny his existence. And when I ask them why they believe in God they just know. They can't point to anything rational or tangible, or even coherently explain it - they feel it. But unless you share these deep special feelings there can be no persuasion. There's nothing rational here - no evidence, no argumentation, no logic. Just an appeal to inexplicable feelings.

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
OP posts:
Quaagars · 06/09/2020 13:07

Quaagers, it's when we get these breaking news headlines in the gutter press (saw a FB post on just that today) saying, "A Man had Given Birth!" that we need to take a deep breath and just quietly utter, nope. Didn't happen

Yes, fair enough, it's a trans man, not a biological man.
That;s not what I was referring to though, I was commenting on someone saying they stopped and thought when PP said where all the middle aged trans men with children?
Me - what has whether or not they've got children got to do with anything?
Also, just because someone hasn't come across middle aged trans men, or haven't seen them for themselves, that means there can't be any?
How does that work?
There'll be plenty of trans men just quietly living their lives, just because I don't know them doesn't mean they don't exist.

bellinisurge · 06/09/2020 13:16

Here's another man that will probably get more attention when he says this than a woman but at least he's saying it

twitter.com/lbc/status/1301887036111179777?s=21

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 13:33

Also, just because someone hasn't come across middle aged trans men, or haven't seen them for themselves, that means there can't be any?

Where are all the trans widowers? Why haven't we heard their stories? Do they have similar experiences to trans widows?

nepeta · 06/09/2020 14:29

Has anyone ever done a study about gender identity? How many people think they have it, whether it is truly unrelated to the sex of the body one has or not and so on.

Given that it is entered into laws in some countries it would be of some interest to find out how many people actually possess it, though of course it might be impossible to measure something so 'ephemeral.'

TyroSaysMeow · 06/09/2020 14:32

Transwidowers are rare, but they exist - my brother was one. There were many similarities between his experience and the transwidow experience, though of course some big differences too (rooted in the differing typical profiles of female versus male transitioners).

As for where all the late-transitioning transmen are - the females who would have transitioned had it been a 'thing' when we were young - a lot of us are on MN. We just don't count, because we don't deny biology and we recognise our feelings about what it means to be a woman are informed by a lifetime immersed in a sexist culture.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 14:38

the females who would have transitioned had it been a 'thing' when we were young - a lot of us are on MN. We just don't count, because we don't deny biology and we recognise our feelings about what it means to be a woman are informed by a lifetime immersed in a sexist culture

Being trans has always "been a thing" though. It just wasn't something we knew much about a few decades ago if we were not trans (talking about say the 80s here)
You talk as if trans people just suddenly popped into existence recently.
They've always been there.
We just know more about being trans now, more aware.

TyroSaysMeow · 06/09/2020 14:45

On the contrary: the concept of transsexualism was invented to explain the existence of homosexual 'inverts'. The history of the phenomenon is a fascinating insight into the homophobia and misogyny of the medical profession.

People who rail against sex-role stereotypes have been around forever, but to call them trans is to view history through the blinkered lens of twenty-first century sexism.

Kit19 · 06/09/2020 14:46

Of course we always knew there a very tiny minority of what were called transsexuals who had surgery & took hormones & did everything humanely possible to present as the opposite sex

But that’s not what trans means now according to stonewall

Trans is anyone who says they are no matter how they present

DidoLamenting · 06/09/2020 15:32

There are photographs here of trans men aged 50 plus. It's not obvious at what age they transitioned.

the females who would have transitioned had it been a 'thing' when we were young - a lot of us are on MN

I can't quite put my finger on why but there's something just a bit arrogant about that comment.

www.tosurviveonthisshore.com/portraits

www.advocate.com/politics/transgender/2015/02/24/photos-transgender-elders-show-us-meaning-survival

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 16:29

[quote DidoLamenting]Trans men's stories.

www.washingtonpost.com/news/local/wp/2018/07/20/feature/crossing-the-divide-do-men-really-have-it-easier-these-transgender-guys-found-the-truth-was-more-complex/[/quote]
I've skimmed through those, and none of them appear to be late-transitioning heterosexual women with children.

First one, transitioned aged about 40, but no partner of either sex or children are mentioned. So could fit this description, but could also have been a lesbian with no children.

Second one was a lesbian before transition.

Third and fourth transitioned in their mid 20s, so not really late transitioning. Fourth one also has a girlfriend, so another lesbian pre-transition.

Where are the transman equivalents of Caitlyn Jenner, Jane Fae, Debbie Hayton? The ones who are married to men, have children, and then when in their 40s or later 'realise' that they are really men?

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 16:33

Again, what has whether they've got children or not got to do with anything? Confused
Are they not as trans, or not really trans if they don't have children?

OldCrone · 06/09/2020 16:38

Do try to keep up, Quaagars. Nobody has said transmen don't exist, or even that older transmen don't exist (everyone's heard of Stephen Whittle). But since the majority of children identifying as trans are now female, you'd expect to see an increase in late transitioning women now that it's more acceptable to do so, wouldn't you?

Don't you find it a bit odd that the majority of 'trans children' are female, but the majority of late transitioners are male? And many of these men have been in heterosexual relationships for years and fathered children. Where are the female equivalents?

DidoLamenting · 06/09/2020 16:47

These are married heterosexual women who transitioned. On the first link you need to scroll to the second case study. That couple have 3 children.

www.inquirer.com/philly/health/When-one-spouse-changes-gender-can-the-marriage-be-saved.html

www.thecut.com/2016/01/what-its-like-when-your-wife-becomes-your-husband.html

DidoLamenting · 06/09/2020 16:49

Where are the female equivalents?

Google is your friend. I've posted several links to late transitioning female to male.

DidoLamenting · 06/09/2020 16:52

The only trans person I know in real life was a heterosexual woman who transitioned ftm aged 29.

DidoLamenting · 06/09/2020 16:55

@Quaagars

Again, what has whether they've got children or not got to do with anything? Confused Are they not as trans, or not really trans if they don't have children?
The not having children bit may well be that a ftm person may well find the idea of being pregnant repugnant- given that being pregnant is a uniquely female experience.

Consciously or unconsciously an ftm person might have avoided pregnancy.

Kit19 · 06/09/2020 17:10

I assume no one is saying that there are no late ftm transitioners only that they appear to be in a minority to mtf whereas the reverse is true for teenagers & people in their 20s

TyroSaysMeow · 06/09/2020 17:16

OldCrone speculating here, but I think the internet-influence factor plays out differently for each sex. I can't think how to properly elaborate on this point without being deleted. Hm.

For those whose transition is rooted in eroticism, males and females take different routes. And, of course, females are expected to lie back and think of England regardless; one's personal sense of entitlement to sexual fulfilment certainly comes into play.

It's a bugger we can't talk about this sort of thing openly, because autoandrophilia is a thing and it develops fairly young and it's fuelled by the internet, and it's indicative of society massively failing girls.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 17:18

*Do try to keep up, Quaagars.

[Hmm Biscuit
Patronising, much?

Nobody has said transmen don't exist
Erm.... it's heavily implied, with all the where are they? on here.

Where are all the trans widowers? Why haven't we heard their stories?

So where are all the middle aged women with children transitioning to men?

the concept of transsexualism was invented to explain the existence of homosexual 'inverts

As for where all the late-transitioning transmen are - the females who would have transitioned had it been a 'thing' when we were young - a lot of us are on MN
Insinuating there's no trans men around as it wasn't "a thing" and it's just something you grow out of if you have no knowledge of it.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 17:23

The not having children bit may well be that a ftm person may well find the idea of being pregnant repugnant- given that being pregnant is a uniquely female experience. Consciously or unconsciously an ftm person might have avoided pregnancy

Good point, never thought of that. that makes sense - I'd assume not many trans men would want to have children as wouldn't want to go through pregnancy and childbirth.
So that could be the answer to why you apparently don't see as many trans men with children as you do trans women.

DidoLamenting · 06/09/2020 17:27

I've posted several links- some of the stories have been dismissed as not the right sort of trans man.

It didn't take me very long to find them. I'm sure there are others.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 17:30

I've posted several links- some of the stories have been dismissed as not the right sort of trans man

Exactly - I've got a feeling it doesn't matter how many trans men stories you post, they'll all get dismissed as they're not "proper" trans men or something.
Dismissed out of hand as not really one Confused

DidoLamenting · 06/09/2020 17:40

www.tosurviveonthisshore.com/interviews

There are interviews with late transitioning ftm - several of whom gave birth.

TyroSaysMeow · 06/09/2020 17:49

80% of kids with gender dysphoria do grow out of it, when treated with a watchful waiting approach.

When I was a child I was aware of precisely zero females who believed they were male; unsurprising as back then the majority of transsexuals were male. I'm not insinuating there were no females who believed they were the wrong sex back them, I'm saying outright that a great many female people were and are uncomfortable with their sex and its ramifications, but unless we follow a strict ideological line we're deemed ignorant and thus ignorable.

This is a consequence of the insistence that "you don't need gender dysphoria to be trans!" Having gender dysphoria is no longer sufficient; the belief system is now a necessary condition.

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