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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!

215 replies

WeeBisom · 05/09/2020 19:12

There's a Facebook post doing the rounds that promises to explain transgender identity. Unfortunately the explanation is very poor and just leaves me with more questions. Seriously, this is the best they can do? I'm going to break this thing down.

Our helpful guide is a "cis" man. And his basic premise is he FEELS like a man but he doesn't know why! He doesn't like any stereotypical guy stuff! (I find it really funny that he says he likes music, cooking and the arts, all things which are incredibly male dominated.) Ok, but I don't think activities ought to be gendered anyway. You do you. You're still a bloke if you like knitting.

But then he tells us it's not physical either. He has this man feeling, but it's not because he has a penis. He then tells us that if you put his brain in a robot body his 'essence" would still "feel male'. He then informs us he has an acute lack of imaginative power and "literally" cannot imagine what being any other gender would feel like. And this is supposed to persuade me that being trans is a real thing.

The problem with running thought experiments, like the brain transplant scenario, is that you take the risk of others just simply not sharing your intuition. And this is what has happened here. If you put my brain in a robot body, god knows how I would feel. God even knows if it would still be me in any meaningful sense. I'm very much like David Hume in that I don't get the impression I have a 'me' "essence." I don't think my personality or 'self' is intrinsically gendered. And more to the point...the biggest conflict is this guy super strongly 'feel's male (so much he can't even imagine what it would be like to be female!) and I don't share this feeling at all. I don't 'feel' female at all. I find it very easy to imagine being in a male body. There is just an irreconcilable clash, here. He has a lack of imagination and a very strong feeling he labels 'male'. I have a good imagination and zero gender feelings. So, er , how is he supposed to persuade me?

He then tells me that he's a man but he has no clue WHY he's a man.He surmises he is a man because "of something ephemeral." Well, now we are just getting into theology. I have deeply religious friends who are baffled at my atheism. It is so confusing to their worldview that some of them even think I do think God exists but I choose to deny his existence. And when I ask them why they believe in God they just know. They can't point to anything rational or tangible, or even coherently explain it - they feel it. But unless you share these deep special feelings there can be no persuasion. There's nothing rational here - no evidence, no argumentation, no logic. Just an appeal to inexplicable feelings.

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 06/09/2020 22:07

How does saying that changing the law/rules based on someone's internal unprovable feelings 'negate them'?

If that's s thing, why is it ok to 'negate' women who say they don't have an internal sense of gender iD by telling them they are cis and just don't know their own mind. Which is something I have seen.

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2020 22:12

Quaagers yes biology is being taken.

Some trans people self iD as cis for example.

Certainly it's the case that gender is supposed to be more important than sex.

Biology is why things like prisons and sports and changing used to be sex segregated. Now they aren't.

Statistics are being made into nonsense.

Etc etc

BovaryX · 06/09/2020 22:13

Being a woman, a massive part of being a woman is your biology. Just because there's more to it for some

The definition of 'woman' is biological. What do you mean by 'there is more to it for some?' It is a limited category. Its limitations are biological. There is a vast diversity within its limitations. But its biological limitations are non negotiable.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 22:17

The definition of 'woman' is biological. What do you mean by 'there is more to it for some?

Have you read the linked article in the OP, or what people have been saying on the thread?

BlackWaveComing · 06/09/2020 22:18

Why should we take 'there is more to it for some' as anything other than an irrational fringe belief?

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 22:21

Quaagers yes biology is being taken.
Some trans people self iD as cis for example

OK, so what if they do? Doesn't mean biology isn't real anymore.
Just because some people are trans, or are trans but say they're c * s, doesn't mean that suddenly there's no such thing as biology.
That's still there.

BlackWaveComing · 06/09/2020 22:26

Sigh. Yes, we know biology exists regardless.

Why should we abandon decision making in law, for example, based not on the material but on the irrational belief that womanhood exists in the ether?

midgebabe · 06/09/2020 22:32

The ether doesn't exist either

crunchermuncher · 06/09/2020 22:42

Quagaars still has fingers firmly in ears.

Quagaars is arguing at cross purposes again, somehow inferring that because people here are discussing whether laws should be changed on the basis of some peoples feelings, that means they deny such people exist/ have the right to their own experiences.

It's really simple: women are oppressed because of biology.

We need a name for the people sharing our biology so we can legislate against discrimination on the basis of sex, which is a thing that happens.

If we can't use women (because for some people it apparently means something different to do with internal feelings), we still need words to define what we are taking about.

If I decide that cups are not cups any more but just 'crockery' , how can I explain that I wasn't the kind of crockery that tea goes in as opposed to the kind that cereal goes in?

Sexism won't go away just because we pretend that it doesn't happen.

crunchermuncher · 06/09/2020 22:44

Biology is being taken away as a means of definition.

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2020 22:51

Fair enough it will still exist! However if woman/ girl / female are decoupled from biology then there is no way to talk about the 50% of the global population who are female as a group.

Quaagars · 06/09/2020 23:05

Quagaars still has fingers firmly in ears

Errr...
Nope, I completely agree biology exists.
I'm AGREEING in places.
I'm agreeing with biology, and with the fact that I see it's a dilemma (for want of a better word) when it comes to law.
An overlap in rights if you like.
I could counter argue the ones with fingers firmly in ears are those who flat out believe that there is something else for others, would prefer to think that trans men don't exist when they clearly do, etc....
I'm not sure where it goes from there.
Stalemate?
Women's rights are important but so are trans rights.
You (general you) shouldn't not accept trans women just because you're under the notion that all biological men might be dangerous.

If we can't use women (because for some people it apparently means something different to do with internal feelings), we still need words to define what we are taking about
Isn't that why we say woman and trans woman? Still acknowledges that women are women, and trans women are women but we say trans women to differentiate?
We can still use biology, it's still there.

TorkTorkBam · 06/09/2020 23:09

What does it mean in practical terms to "accept transwomen" to you quaagars?

You seem to want to find some happy compromise. Where would you put the boundaries if you ruled the world?

NiceGerbil · 06/09/2020 23:12

If anyone who says they are a woman is a woman then how do women's rights work?

'You (general you) shouldn't not accept trans women just because you're under the notion that all biological men might be dangerous.'

Interesting. You're pro mixed sex for everything then? To be fairer on men?

Keaveny · 06/09/2020 23:57

But we dont feel male or female, we just are due to the body we have and how we are socialised into the male/female role. We become men and women through a process of socialisation and gendered expectations of the sex role , some of us are more happy to align with this and others less so, its all very dependent on individual 'PERSONALITY'

I was going to add my POV but realized it had been captured here (almost perfectly). The only edit I’d make is to say I do feel like my sex as a result of socialization.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/09/2020 00:03

So make an argument, or stop wasting our time.

I commend your optimism on both counts in terms of this poster Grin

ItsLateHumpty · 07/09/2020 00:09

Just because some people are trans, or are trans but say they're c-s, doesn't mean that suddenly there's no such thing as biology.
That's still there.

If (general) we all decide the earth is flat, the (almost) spherical earth would just keep spinning but we’d have huge problems charting flight paths or shipping lanes.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/09/2020 00:09

Quaagars has precisely no way of knowing whether her "woman feeling which is more than biology" is actually a product of her female socialisation since birth. Or in fact something to do with biological perception of her sex.

I wouldn't give too much time over to these kind of thought experiments.

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 00:11

So make an argument, or stop wasting our time

I commend your optimism on both counts in terms of this poster

Why like that. why the arsiness?
Way to make people want to engage further lol
Then you wonder why people fuck off and can't be bothered when this is what you get.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 00:12

The reason I became a feminist even before I knew the word was because

I went around feeling like a person, but people were forever pointing out my sex (gender role) and it pissed me off.

All through the years it has been jarring when I'm going about happily feeling like a person and someone treats me in a way that shows they don't see me as a person first but as girl/ woman first (and all that comes with that) and person second.

A lot of the fight of feminists has been around having women and girls seen as people rather than 2D stereotypes.

When I read about trans people wanting to be 'treated as a woman' it feels like all of the work to see us as actual people first is being undermined.

ItsLateHumpty · 07/09/2020 00:14

Quaagars has precisely no way of knowing whether her "woman feeling which is more than biology" is actually a product of her female socialisation...

Or in fact the same as a mans woman feeling. Or mine. Or my cats.

But let’s make laws on that - can’t see a problem myself 😺

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 00:18

Quaagars has precisely no way of knowing whether her "woman feeling which is more than biology" is actually a product of her female socialisation...

I know there's a part of me that's nothing to do with what's between my legs, nothing to do with with what people have told me I am growing up, what my role or expectations have been as an adult, what I have liked toy wise/game wise growing up - it's just there.

But let’s make laws on that - can’t see a problem myself

I've even said yes, can see why problematic when comes to law, doesn't mean that it isn't real for people.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 00:18

Thing is we all have deeply held/ important things about how we 'identify' (what is fundamental in our feelings about who we are).

Thing is, there's loads of things. Loads.

For many (and we don't know how many) an internal sense of 'gender identity' is not on the list.

BlackWaveComing · 07/09/2020 00:19

@Quaagars

So make an argument, or stop wasting our time

I commend your optimism on both counts in terms of this poster

Why like that. why the arsiness?
Way to make people want to engage further lol
Then you wonder why people fuck off and can't be bothered when this is what you get.

A strong argument is strong regardless of fed up women having the temerity to speak bluntly.

But sure, shelter behind 'rude women put me off sharing my compelling argument for taking irrational minority belief seriously in law'

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 00:20

For many (and we don't know how many) an internal sense of 'gender identity' is not on the list

So for those who do have the internal sense, should they just pretend to be something they're not to appease what everyone else sees as "normal"? To "fit in?"

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