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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!

215 replies

WeeBisom · 05/09/2020 19:12

There's a Facebook post doing the rounds that promises to explain transgender identity. Unfortunately the explanation is very poor and just leaves me with more questions. Seriously, this is the best they can do? I'm going to break this thing down.

Our helpful guide is a "cis" man. And his basic premise is he FEELS like a man but he doesn't know why! He doesn't like any stereotypical guy stuff! (I find it really funny that he says he likes music, cooking and the arts, all things which are incredibly male dominated.) Ok, but I don't think activities ought to be gendered anyway. You do you. You're still a bloke if you like knitting.

But then he tells us it's not physical either. He has this man feeling, but it's not because he has a penis. He then tells us that if you put his brain in a robot body his 'essence" would still "feel male'. He then informs us he has an acute lack of imaginative power and "literally" cannot imagine what being any other gender would feel like. And this is supposed to persuade me that being trans is a real thing.

The problem with running thought experiments, like the brain transplant scenario, is that you take the risk of others just simply not sharing your intuition. And this is what has happened here. If you put my brain in a robot body, god knows how I would feel. God even knows if it would still be me in any meaningful sense. I'm very much like David Hume in that I don't get the impression I have a 'me' "essence." I don't think my personality or 'self' is intrinsically gendered. And more to the point...the biggest conflict is this guy super strongly 'feel's male (so much he can't even imagine what it would be like to be female!) and I don't share this feeling at all. I don't 'feel' female at all. I find it very easy to imagine being in a male body. There is just an irreconcilable clash, here. He has a lack of imagination and a very strong feeling he labels 'male'. I have a good imagination and zero gender feelings. So, er , how is he supposed to persuade me?

He then tells me that he's a man but he has no clue WHY he's a man.He surmises he is a man because "of something ephemeral." Well, now we are just getting into theology. I have deeply religious friends who are baffled at my atheism. It is so confusing to their worldview that some of them even think I do think God exists but I choose to deny his existence. And when I ask them why they believe in God they just know. They can't point to anything rational or tangible, or even coherently explain it - they feel it. But unless you share these deep special feelings there can be no persuasion. There's nothing rational here - no evidence, no argumentation, no logic. Just an appeal to inexplicable feelings.

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
OP posts:
Winesalot · 07/09/2020 09:33

I get why you (general you) would rather pretend they didn't exist though and that's fair enough.

This seems to be the fall back position that I see used all the time. There is no one on this thread denying their existence.

7Days · 07/09/2020 10:06

You need more than vague subjective incomprehensible-to-many notions to override physical reality in law and policy.

That's not denying anyone exists ffs.

The melodrama is something else.

crunchermuncher · 07/09/2020 10:17

You're back to invoking that old chestnut 'I did answer the question, you didn't like my answer'. There are lots of people really interested in what you think. I don't understand how you're invested enough to come ball and quarrel by invoking straw men, but not to set out your actual point of view.

If you were genuinely interested in debate, and someone had misunderstood your clearly set out arguments for what precisely gender identity is, why we don't need a word that defines biological women and why we should accept without question that TWAW, wouldn't you be happy to precis those arguments here again, rather than just announcing that you've already explained it and it's their fault if they missed it/ didn't understand.

For avoidance of doubt/ more derailing, I am aware that you haven't actually invoked the phrase TWAW but it's the logical conclusion of arguing that gender identity is a real thing that we should base laws around otherwise its discrimination.

Out of interest, how do you believe trans people are being discriminated against? of course some people will always be arseholes to other people , that's not what I mean, but I assume you meant discrimination in the wider, deeper sense that is currently propped up by society. Some trans people have more protections in law than non trans, due to gender reassignment being a protected characteristic under the EA. Can you elaborate on what this discrimination looks like, maybe we could discuss how that could be addressed.

Also, no one is saying trans men don't exist. It's interesting that there appears to be an explosion in teenage transitioning f to m compared with the numbers in older demographics. Yes there are some late f to m transistioners but it appears not nearly as many. Isn't it worth looking at why that is and whether something else is going on for teenage girls in the current climate?

EdgeOfACoin · 07/09/2020 12:20

If you were genuinely interested in debate, and someone had misunderstood your clearly set out arguments for what precisely gender identity is, why we don't need a word that defines biological women and why we should accept without question that TWAW, wouldn't you be happy to precis those arguments here again, rather than just announcing that you've already explained it and it's their fault if they missed it/ didn't understand.

I entirely agree. As I have said before, I genuinely came to this debate an agnostic on the issue. However, the lack of rational argument on the non-GC side of the issue has pushed me pretty firmly into the GC camp.

I'm afraid just saying 'I already answered this question; you missed it' is not causing me to reconsider my point of view.

crunchermuncher · 07/09/2020 13:02

Edge ditto. I have not ever seen one coherent argument against a GC pov (for those who would wilfully misunderstand me, I am not referring to trans prepress right to exist or be treated with respect and fairness. I'm talking about defining what gender actually gender identity actually is in a logical way, and how we as a society make laws which benefit the majority of citizens).

crunchermuncher · 07/09/2020 13:03

*trans peoples

Bloody phone

OldCrone · 07/09/2020 13:14

I've been trying to get an answer to the question 'what is gender identity?' for years. I now get the response from people like Quaagars that I must know because I've been here for ages. When of course the reason I keep asking is because I've yet to get a coherent answer to the question.

BrollyKnickers · 07/09/2020 13:53

Fear of questions. I bet the Germans have a word for it.

Malahaha · 07/09/2020 15:07

@Quaagars

For many (and we don't know how many) an internal sense of 'gender identity' is not on the list

So for those who do have the internal sense, should they just pretend to be something they're not to appease what everyone else sees as "normal"? To "fit in?"

It doesn't matter. It just doesn't. We really (as a society) have to get over the idea that feelings have to be regarded in every instance: in law, in language, in institutions, in advertising, in writing, etc.

As I said early, I have a certain philosophy that I live by and which has been important to me for the last 45 or so years. Just about nobody I interact with on a daily basis, including MNers, including my readers (I'm a writer) have absolutely no idea what it is. I adapt to what is currently accepted and understood and never try to get others to know my perception. Not even some of my closest friends know my thoughts on this. Somehow I've managed this for a couple decades without in any way feeling that I am pretending or fitting in. Most of life in society requires compromise, adapting. This too.

As long as my (and my family's) safety and external well-being and practical living arrangements are not affected why should I care if others acknowledge me as I acknowledge myself, or not?
It seems particularly self-absorbed to demand such acknowledgement.

EdgeOfACoin · 07/09/2020 15:29

So for those who do have the internal sense, should they just pretend to be something they're not to appease what everyone else sees as "normal"? To "fit in?"

I would just argue that if biological sex is going to be subordinate to gender identity, there should be some pretty convincing reasons as to why. From what I can see, women don't benefit at all from gender ideology. We are being asked to give up our single-sex spaces, allow transwomen onto women-only shortlists, allow ourselves to be beaten by male-bodied people in female-only sports, give up our right to be defined as 'women', make young girls share changing rooms with male-bodied children while telling them that these male-bodied children are also girls...

And whenever we question this ideology, it all comes down to some inner feeling that nobody can explain but that somehow trumps biological sex in every way.

Yes, it probably is awful to have gender dysphoria and to believe that you have been born in the wrong body. But why is this undefined, inexplicable, innate sense of gender identity so important that it overrides biological sex, when doing so very clearly disadvantages women and girls?

7Days · 07/09/2020 15:46

Very succinct post EdgeoftheCoin

Jux · 08/09/2020 18:11

My brain and my body developed together in my mother's womb. My brain made my body and my body made my brain. The two are irreversibly interlinked. My body is female; therefore my brain is female. Everyone develops like this.

Your brain makes your body and your body makes your brain. It is simply impossible to have the wrong body for your brain or to have the wrong brain for your body. They determine each other.

merrymouse · 08/09/2020 19:26

So for those who do have the internal sense, should they just pretend to be something they're not to appease what everyone else sees as "normal"? To "fit in?"

The belief that people shouldn't have to be 'normal' or 'fit in' is the core of being gender critical.

Many people believe things that other people don't believe and 'normal dress' is culturally specific.

Problems only arise when you try to restrict somebody else's rights or beliefs. Enforcement of 'TWAW' makes it impossible to define in legislation people whose sex is female and protect their rights.

It also makes it impossible to protect the rights of trans people.

It only really helps people whose rights were never threatened in the first place.

merrymouse · 08/09/2020 19:54

Also, women have been doing things despite not 'fitting in' and appearing 'normal' for a very long time.

NiceGerbil · 08/09/2020 20:09

Too true.

Including disproportionately dying in low speed car crashes, having to use ill fitting protective equipment, trying to get our voices heard in male dominated workplaces etc etc etc

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