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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!

215 replies

WeeBisom · 05/09/2020 19:12

There's a Facebook post doing the rounds that promises to explain transgender identity. Unfortunately the explanation is very poor and just leaves me with more questions. Seriously, this is the best they can do? I'm going to break this thing down.

Our helpful guide is a "cis" man. And his basic premise is he FEELS like a man but he doesn't know why! He doesn't like any stereotypical guy stuff! (I find it really funny that he says he likes music, cooking and the arts, all things which are incredibly male dominated.) Ok, but I don't think activities ought to be gendered anyway. You do you. You're still a bloke if you like knitting.

But then he tells us it's not physical either. He has this man feeling, but it's not because he has a penis. He then tells us that if you put his brain in a robot body his 'essence" would still "feel male'. He then informs us he has an acute lack of imaginative power and "literally" cannot imagine what being any other gender would feel like. And this is supposed to persuade me that being trans is a real thing.

The problem with running thought experiments, like the brain transplant scenario, is that you take the risk of others just simply not sharing your intuition. And this is what has happened here. If you put my brain in a robot body, god knows how I would feel. God even knows if it would still be me in any meaningful sense. I'm very much like David Hume in that I don't get the impression I have a 'me' "essence." I don't think my personality or 'self' is intrinsically gendered. And more to the point...the biggest conflict is this guy super strongly 'feel's male (so much he can't even imagine what it would be like to be female!) and I don't share this feeling at all. I don't 'feel' female at all. I find it very easy to imagine being in a male body. There is just an irreconcilable clash, here. He has a lack of imagination and a very strong feeling he labels 'male'. I have a good imagination and zero gender feelings. So, er , how is he supposed to persuade me?

He then tells me that he's a man but he has no clue WHY he's a man.He surmises he is a man because "of something ephemeral." Well, now we are just getting into theology. I have deeply religious friends who are baffled at my atheism. It is so confusing to their worldview that some of them even think I do think God exists but I choose to deny his existence. And when I ask them why they believe in God they just know. They can't point to anything rational or tangible, or even coherently explain it - they feel it. But unless you share these deep special feelings there can be no persuasion. There's nothing rational here - no evidence, no argumentation, no logic. Just an appeal to inexplicable feelings.

Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
Don't understand how someone can be transgender? This man explains it all!
OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 00:21

I've said I'm happy to believe that some people feel this way, even though I have no such feelings.

Like with my religious friend, I am happy to believe that she has a feeling inside that there is something 'more'.

Interestingly she found it harder to get her head round the idea that I had no such feelings, than I had regarding her spirituality.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 00:22

'So for those who do have the internal sense, should they just pretend to be something they're not to appease what everyone else sees as "normal"? To "fit in?"'

Straw man. Who has said this. I certainly haven't.

OldCrone · 07/09/2020 00:23

I know there's a part of me that's nothing to do with what's between my legs, nothing to do with with what people have told me I am growing up, what my role or expectations have been as an adult, what I have liked toy wise/game wise growing up - it's just there.

Unless you can explain what this is, objectively, to someone who doesn't experience it, and it can be verified by others that it exists, it's no different to a belief, similar to a religious belief.

So it exists to you, and it may be an important part of your life, but we can't base laws on it.

BlackWaveComing · 07/09/2020 00:27

@Quaagars

For many (and we don't know how many) an internal sense of 'gender identity' is not on the list

So for those who do have the internal sense, should they just pretend to be something they're not to appease what everyone else sees as "normal"? To "fit in?"

But transition IS cosmetic change to present oneself as something one is not - the opposite sex!

There's a difference between what I am and what I might wish, genuinely and fervently, to be.

My actual hope for those with sex-based dysphoria ( the only trans cohort I give thought to) is that we find better treatments to enable people to live in their own bodies without overwhelming distress.
Surgery, medication - these are not things we should see as anything more than a fairly primitive way of ameliorating some forms of psychological distress.

We don't need to reorganise society around gender; we need better understanding of the mind/brain.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 00:30

Additionally.

I have just posted about my deep discomfort with the gender role assigned to me on account of my sex.

How do you get from that, what you posted. That people should toe the line and fit in?

The really shit thing is that feminists of the old school would be natural allies. I believe people should be freed of the constraints of gender role. Dress how you want, enjoy whatever interests you want etc. Get rid of gender boxes, is the aim for many. Free people to be themselves.

Great. I will fight for that.

But redefine women and girls (and most of it seems to be focussed on them rather than men) to mean nothing more than a self declared feeling... No thanks.

We are 50% of the world and have been oppressed globally for as long as anyone can remember. We need words for who we are, based on biology. In order to talk about our history, oppression, struggles etc. Take our language and ability to name ourselves as a group and we as are stuffed.

ItsLateHumpty · 07/09/2020 00:48

So for those who do have the internal sense, should they just pretend to be something they're not to appease what everyone else sees as "normal"? To "fit in?"

No one has said this. And PPs have said why this is a bogus statement.

People can have whatever internal sense they want. We can even try and find labels for them like we have for other feelings eg sad, joyful, incandescent, etc

But we need words that are universal, global, and don’t change so we can make laws, record history, and understand oppressions.

If we started to agree for eg that transracial was a thing, then we’d dilute the needs of many, and deny the historical and continued subjugation of the truely oppressed.
I mean apartheid couldn’t be a thing if transblack people where allowed in golf clubs, and on busses.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 00:57

All true but you need to remember that woman/ girl is ephemeral, a feeling,

WHO tweeted this:

'"Trans women are women at the end of the day. Every woman is a woman. Women are multifaceted, intergenerational, international. They are limitless, formless ... women are the world.'

We are whatever other people want us to be.

Biology (the root of our oppression globally and for as long as anyone can remember) is irrelevant.

As an aside. I didn't feel formless when men started sexually harassing me when I was pretty young.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 00:57

Get your tits out to a girl in school uniform doesn't shout formless, does it.

It's insulting TBH.

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 00:59

Straw man. Who has said this

You might not have done, but what should people who do have that innate sense do if it doesn't "match" ?
If it doesn't fit in with what every one else deems right, proper, what should they do?
Pretend it isn't them? Pretend to be c * i s even if that's not who they are?
Hide themselves?
Shock themselves out of it, have conversion therapy?
What else do you suggest?
Any of those or something else?

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:06

So no one on the thread has said this.

But you're asking people to respond as if they did.

And I don't think you've read my posts at all.

I would hardly advocate for conversion therapy for myself, would I! You are the only person who has mentioned that, or shock therapy.

You're not engaging with what people are saying.

But raising things that no one has (or would) mention.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:06

You can do better than this I'm sure.

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 01:10

I would hardly advocate for conversion therapy for myself, would I! You are the only person who has mentioned that, or shock therapy

OK. so fair enough, what should trans people do then?
No to conversion therapy/shock therapy
No to actually being themselves, living as themselves and living as trans
What else is there, what other way?

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 01:11

Other option obviously pretend they aren't trans in the first place and nothing to see here

TorkTorkBam · 07/09/2020 01:17

If it doesn't fit in with what every one else deems right, proper, what should they do?

Be gender non-conforming. Be a butch lesbian in sensible shoes. Or a straight woman with no makeup short hairs, unisex clothes and a job in engineering, call yourself Bob if you want. Be a man who likes to wear dresses, makeup have long swishy hair and calls himself Jessica.

Long hair on men was deemed improper in the UK in the sixties but now nobody minds. A hundred years ago a woman in trousers was shocking. What about women working after marriage, that used to be improper but people did it. Where I grew up I was an outlier for my church refusal.

There will always be people who don't conform to society's current norms.

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:21

Erm

Live as themselves and trans, obviously!

Fuck gender role. Everyone is free to dress/ enjoy etc what they want.

But. Feeling like a woman inside when you are male or vice versa does not make it so. Women and men have different experiences due to biology. Rules and laws to follow. Around the world. Women and girls are still struggling. Even in the UK. Because of their sex.

You will struggle to find a GC woman on here who believes in enforcing gender role.

As I mentioned. Most women on here are, by stonewall definition, trans. You seem to forget that.

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 01:22

Get your tits out to a girl in school uniform doesn't shout formless, does it.
No, it shouts yes we see you as biologically female.

It's insulting TBH
Yes, agree with that too, of course it is.
Doesn't mean that that's all there is for people whether they're male or female though.

ItsLateHumpty · 07/09/2020 01:28

I believe at this point Quaagars is only ID’ing as being on this thread due to the amount of (attempted) rebuttals made to arguments nobody is making 🤔

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:29

The WHO shared the 'women are formless' comments.

They are a very large org with various initiatives supporting, um. Menstruators, cervix havers, at risk of pregnancy people, those who are at risk of beatings or worse if they go out in the 'wrong' attire, people who are at risk of genital mutilation (FGM or circumcision?)..

Womenv and girls are formless, your see. Epheremal. An identity. Nothing more, nothing less.

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 01:32

Be gender non-conforming. Be a butch lesbian in sensible shoes. Or a straight woman with no makeup short hairs, unisex clothes and a job in engineering, call yourself Bob if you want

What if you know you're not gender non conforming, that you're not a lesbian or a straight woman with no make up and short hair?
(Not sure where being a straight woman with short hair and unisex clothes and likes engineering has to do with anything, all those perfectly fine things for women to do or be!) None of that makes you any less of a woman.

WeeBisom · 07/09/2020 01:33

"So for those who do have the internal sense, should they just pretend to be something they're not to appease what everyone else sees as "normal"? To "fit in?"

The interesting question here is to what extent someone's inner feelings about who, or what, they are should be indulged in reality. Some people have very strong feelings that they are Jesus Christ, but they can very end up in a hospital getting treatment to rid them of these feelings. Certainly we don't treat someone as the Messiah just because they feel like it.

What I gather with gender identity is that if someone who is male actually feels like they are female, then we should treat them as if they are female and give their feelings the highest amount of respect. In fact, some are arguing that if on has these internal female feelings that is sufficient to actually make them female.

My problem with this is: I have zero issue with letting people dress or present in any way they want. If a male wants to be super feminine he can go ahead. But I don't get why this also extends to believing he is literally a female.Usually we say that if feelings strongly conflict with reality that reality wins.

OP posts:
OldCrone · 07/09/2020 01:36

What if you know you're not gender non conforming, that you're not a lesbian or a straight woman with no make up and short hair?

Are you trying to say 'what if a woman knows she's a man'?

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:38

Ah. Quaagers has invoked Alex Drummond.

Expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman.

The progressive thing for Alex to do would be to expand the bandwidth of what it means to be male.

Quaagars · 07/09/2020 01:39

Erm

Live as themselves and trans, obviously!

How can they though, if people discriminate against them or say they don't exist/must be deluded/mentally ill/etc?

Fuck gender role. Everyone is free to dress/ enjoy etc what they want
Yes, but doesn't work if you're trans
You presumably mean dress as you want only if you accept you aren't trans?

NiceGerbil · 07/09/2020 01:41

I have always felt like a person.

I'm a feminist because society did not (ever) recognise that.

This is non trivial for a lot of women. To be seen as a person first, rather than a girl/ woman first and all that comes with that.

OldCrone · 07/09/2020 01:41

Yes, but doesn't work if you're trans

Why not?