8 year old boy wants to change with the girls

[FairytaleofBykerGrove]

I’ve been informed that a boy in my daughters class ‘feels like a girl’. He’s been wearing dresses to school for a while (fine) and now wants to change with the girls for swimming. Apparently the children will all accept it no problem and they’d like the parents to do the same. He will be under a poncho towel so we don’t have to worry about his privacy(?) I am really very unhappy with this. Which is why I’m up at 3 in the morning. The other parents I’ve spoken to don’t seem to care either way. I can’t understand it at all. Do you have any advice for me?

Does the school have a plan in place for when the boy is 12, 14, 17? What if the girls feel uncomfortable now, or as they get older? Presumably they’re being socialised to downplay their feelings and prioritize the boy’s feelings?

It’s a primary school, so it’s someone else’s problem after 12. Yes that is exactly my feeling. I am very bad at putting it into words. The other parents I’ve spoken to say they will leave it up to their daughters to decide if it’s ok but that seems like a lot of pressure on an eight year old girl to be the one who has to say ‘no’ to something that everyone else seems ok with.

I am really upset over this. My daughter feels sorry for this boy and they have already been told to be extra kind to him. She would hate to feel she is upsetting him. I feel like I have to say no to this without passing the burden of responsibility to my child. But the way the email was worded suggests it’s a done deal and not up for discussion.

He's eight and he's changing under a poncho. Why would you care?

Four years is a long time. I would worry about what happens when he's a teenager when it happens.

I care because by the time some of the girls hit puberty it will be an established arrangement - that could happen for some of them any time now.

I also care because they change separately for a reason. The boy’s privacy has been carefully considered but not the girls’. If it’s irrelevant because they are prepubescent then why do they change separately at all?

He's eight and he's changing under a poncho. Why would you care?

Because the girls' boundaries are being formed now. And being allowed to say 'no' without feeling bad is a skill I hope my DD carries into adulthood. Being allowed to think about her needs without first thinking of a boy's wants. My DD is developing (early) and would feel torn about this. She shouldn't have to.

The girls have been told to be kind. There's a fucking surprise.

safeschoolsallianceuk.files.wordpress.com/2019/08/singlesextoiletsfactsheet.pdf

Poor you OP, what a difficult position. I would take a copy of the fact sheet above to the headteacher (there are other great resources on Safe Schools Alliance UK) and explain that this isn’t acceptable. I’d show empathy for the child concerned, but explain that this is about establishing boundaries for the girls. You don’t need to express any views on transgenderism but if you want to appeal to the head teacher’s critical thinking skills you might want to ask them why they think it’s a good idea to support this and question if this is about reinforcing gender stereotyping. Have they considered that this might be the parents way of handling the child presenting signs of same sex attraction?

But there's no evidence at all that any of the girls mind! They're only eight after all.

But there's no evidence at all that any of the girls mind!

Did anyone actually ask? Without pressure, without an expectation, without eliciting 'niceness'? Because I guarantee one of the girls in my DD's class would have gone 'ewwww boys no' if asked without pressure.

Oh well. I'd change boys and girls together in a family change room no worries at that age. That's why it doesn't seem a big deal to me.

My daughter is a people pleaser. She would not dare to say she minded. I accept this is a major problem with how I have raised her but here we are.

IAmBitDarling - thank you for the link. Unfortunately we are in Ireland so I don’t think it would carry much weight. I wonder if there is a similar Irish document?

It might be worth asking why they are segregating by sex in the first place -either sex matters or it doesn't.

It might be worth asking why they are segregating by sex in the first place -either sex matters or it doesn't.

And actually if we lived in a lovely utopia with no body issues and no sexual harassment and everyone open like a big Swedish commune, that'd be great. But I can pretty much predict that if we had group changing at my DD's school some of the boys would comment. In the playground. At length.

This is not ok at all. Are the girls changing under a poncho too? If he doesn’t want to change with the boys then he can use the disabled bathrooms or teacher toilets surely no would be very unhappy with this. It’s an invasion of young girls privacy.

At 8 children can not make decisions or have full understanding about what this means for their future. Very tough for teachers but all the children in this situation are vulnerable.

I worry about the girls. Years ago, when I was 9, I was getting changed in the garage after swimming (this was in South Africa). A male friend of the family walked in as he didn't know I was there and he saw me - shock horror - in my pants and t-shirt. He immediately left. No harm done.

However, for me, the embarrassment of him seeing me in my pants was so overwhelming that I ran away. It took the family ages to find me. This was in a very dangerous part of town, where I was at risk of kidnapping or worse.

My point being that girls are very sensitive at this age. I would not want my DD changing with boys. And it shouldn't be the case that the feelings of one boy trump the privacy of all of the girls.

Of for goodness sake this is an 8 year old. The child is no threat to anybody. Move on.

@JennerOfKensington, are you suggesting that the girls do not have a right to privacy?

I’m not suggesting an 8 year old boy is a threat. And I do feel bad for him. It’s the whole ideology that his feelings matter more than the girls. I can’t imagine any of the boys in the class will be a threat over the next few years, but it will still be inappropriate for them to change in front of each other.

@Fairlytale, what is the demographic make-up of your DD's class? Are they all white Christian?

I wouldn’t be happy with this. My dd recently turned 9 ( UK year 4 ) and has been displaying signs of puberty since she was 8.
There are still many girls ( and boys ) in her class who are still 8.

The girls change separately for PE and I think this is right. They’re also doing swimming with school at the moment and I know dd would be shocked if one of the boys was changing with them.

I don’t think the children should have been asked either. It puts them on the spot. Peer pressure is huge and nobody wants to be the one to say no.

Parents should make the call. I’m surprised it has even been considered to be honest. Does the school have a safeguarding lead?

Dd has told me that many of the girls just strip off, others are a bit more more private.
If a boy was in there I would assume that most, if not all, girls would hide their bodies away which they shouldn’t have to if they’re comfortable with stripping off.

I’d prefer not to give details but there would be no one I can think of in the class complaining on the grounds of culture or religion.

That explains it.

Looks like H&S at work rules are very similar in Ireland.

www.hsa.ie/eng/Publications_and_Forms/Publications/General_Application_Regulations/gen_apps_workplace.pdf

Separate toileting and changing unless designed for single person use.

School toileting www.education.ie/en/School-Design/Technical-Guidance-Documents/Current-Technical-Guidance/TGD–021-2-Guidelines-and-Standards-for-Sanitary-Facilities-in-Primary-Schools-1st-Edition-April-2014-.pdf pg 13

I understand that conversion therapy is illegal in Ireland. That might be a strong angle to take?

Apparently the children will all accept it no problem Because at 8 they have no idea that it is not acceptable! I am shocked that parents think 8 is old enough to decide.

@Socalm He's eight and he's changing under a poncho.

Oh of course, females are entitled to privacy, are they? He gets to hide beneath a towel for his privacy, yet unless he is hiding his eyes too, no one else will get any!

@Socalm But there's no evidence at all that any of the girls mind!

I assume you are not there though? And have taken into account about how the girls have been told to be "kind" while having their privacy violated.

and this

@Ritascornershop Presumably they’re being socialised to downplay their feelings and prioritize the boy’s feelings?