8 year old boy wants to change with the girls

[FairytaleofBykerGrove]

I’ve been informed that a boy in my daughters class ‘feels like a girl’. He’s been wearing dresses to school for a while (fine) and now wants to change with the girls for swimming. Apparently the children will all accept it no problem and they’d like the parents to do the same. He will be under a poncho towel so we don’t have to worry about his privacy(?) I am really very unhappy with this. Which is why I’m up at 3 in the morning. The other parents I’ve spoken to don’t seem to care either way. I can’t understand it at all. Do you have any advice for me?

And there is a difference between transwomen and 'men who want to invade women only spaces and abuse them'

The difference between men and about 95 percent of transwomen is that the transwomen wear 'female' clothes. Which isn't a difference at all is it. Just clothes. Sex matters. Biology matters. And sex segregated spaces are there to keep women safe. The rate of male pattern offending does not reduce just because they have identified as a woman.

As many people have pointed out, at the moment, it isn't an issue

Girls learning they arent allowed baoundries and that their feelings are secondary to biological males is an issue.

Identity doesn't change the physical make up of your body. Girls have a right to not have to change with those whose bodies are different tho theirs. And so do boys. Adults should not he putting them in this position

dalishelf
It's unkind to teach girls that they have no right to boundaries and must undress in front of anyone of the opposite sex if they demand it (even if they're lovely).
It's also unkind (and bloody dangerous) for that boy's emotional growth) to let him believe that he is one of a 'sacred caste' where the normal societal conventions don't apply to him because he wants something.
It's not horrid or unkind to say no to a boy demanding to undress with the girls. It's reinforcing boundaries that keep boys and girls safe.

Please push back. Women need to.Your DD should not grow up being told to be kind to males, even if they makes her feel uncomfortable.

Isn't this then teaching an 8 year old boy not to respect the dignity of girls bodies and their privacy and teaching him that he has a privilege where all girls have to be nice to him because he is 'special'.

Yep this. My boy wouldn't dream of doing this. Seems to me more some families and schools need to focus on manners, respect and values towards women and girls.

Isn't it going to be MORE upsetting for the boy to get changed with girls and have it in front of his face that they don't have a penis while he does?! Surely it's unkind to allow him to change with the girls?

Surely the kindest thing to do would be to allow him to change under a poncho in the boys' changing rooms and teach the boys to be kind.

That's, of course centerjng the needs of the boy, but then again, that's what this situation is doing anyway.

"It might be worth asking why they are segregating by sex in the first place -either sex matters or it doesn't"

and why gender identity is deemed to be more important

The school is setting a precedent here that children who state of hey are transgender can change with the opposite sex and they need to think carefully through the ramifications of this policy. What if a girl wants to change with the boys are they going to discriminate then? What if the class joker wants to go in with the girls.

This isn't about this one young boy it's about creating a new policy. Have the school governers and school insurers been told? Have they done a risk and impact assessment?

A school governor would need to think about the risk. There are statistics on the increase in sex assaults on children by children in schools. What if there is a sexual assault on a girl in the boy's changing room. What if a boy claims to be transgender and smuggles a camera in under a poncho after being dared by adults and photos of the girls are put on social media?

What if a male teacher is accused of being inappropriate in the boy's changing room by a girl. That's a risk for teachers.

The school need to consider the risk of the policy, not the risk from this individual child.

FairytaleofBykerGrove
I know you said you'll go in to discuss but I'd suggest writing first? It is incredibly difficult to talk about this - especially when met with suggestions that you're being unkind about this "poor little boy".
I'd put together a clear email including a few of the key points about boundaries etc and objecting to girls being pressurised to agree to something that is unacceptable - being forced to completely undress in front of the opposite sex. Then follow it up with the meeting? Good luck.

I would write to the school starting with the fact that they acknowledge the need for privacy and asking how they propose to maintain the girls privacy and teach them appropriate boundaries.

And there is a difference between transwomen and 'men who want to invade women only spaces and abuse them' (despite what most people say on the Feminism chats...)
@dalishelf can you please enlighten me as to how you tell the difference? Would be incredibly useful knowledge.

My daughter feels sorry for this boy and they have already been told to be extra kind to him. She would hate to feel she is upsetting him. THAT'S THE BLOODY ISSUE!

All of the girls have been told, by trusted adults, that it is they that need to pick up the burden of this! They have to set aide all previous teachings about their body being private etc. And it's the boy who will change under a fucking poncho for HIS privacy!!!!!!!!

THINK about the message that gives all the girls. Don't just nod and say it's sweet, safe at that age, be kind and nice etc. THINK about how it will skew the thinking of those girls... think about how their newly ingrained lack of boundaries could affect them as adults.

8 year olds shouldn't be asked to make that decision, adults should be setting safe boundaries in place, and he should be getting changed y a space that is safe for him, but not with the girls. Not OK in year 6.

@TheProdigalKittensReturn I am no disregarding the feelings of women here, I am simply trying to consider the feelings of all involved.

No matter your personal views, the transgender child is, statistically, at more risk than a large group of girls in a school.

And saying that transwomen just wear womens clothes is hugely offensive@AParallelUniverse

If it's not, then someone needs to be the adult in the situation and say sorry, girls and boys change in different rooms because they have different bodies, not because of how they feel or what they wear. You have a boy's body.

It's this. It's important for children, boys especially, to accept reality as it is, and not what they want it to be.

Dalishelf, "be kind" is such a cliche. Pandering to a child's wishes and desires even when they go against reality, even when they might possibly infringe on others, is not being kind. It is raising them to be selfish and put themselves first, to think that their desires are paramount and more worthy than the needs of others.

This boy needs help and sound advice, not pandering.
And transwomen will never be women.

This is all types of wrong , some of those girls will hit puberty soon and it sets a precedent for any child wanting to get changed with the girls if they say they ' feel like a girl' .. let the kids get changed in a separate changing room then everyone is safe . The works has gone crazy!

world

If the school insists on going ahead with this, OP, my DD would be in a full length poncho too.

He is not being 'segregated' any more than any other child is. Segregation by sex is not only normal, it's legally required. Saying that this child is being 'segregated' is unnecessarily hyperbolic and implies hardship and rejection. This child is perfectly able to change with the other boys who are segregated from the girls, the provision is no different. If this child has a need that the other boys do not have, then the answer and the kind thing to do is to respect their feelings and provide additional provision so that the child has choice of changing with their sex or changing privately. Additional choice is not hardship or segregation. It is not up to the girls to fix this for him, it says a great deal that eight year old females are expected to take lower place in all considerations to a single eight year old male. This is an act of profound sexism and is 'kind' to nobody.

Society has to get over this peculiar and misogynistic idea that a gesture of ritual sacrifice of girls' privacy, dignity, safeguarding and equality is somehow required to compensate a male person for the pain of gender identity dysphoria. Boys can be transgirls and that is great. In some limited circumstances the biological female girls will need specific provisions different to transgirls to meet their needs. This is taking equal care and consideration for females; that this is seen as 'segregation' makes it clear how lower in status females are.

Girls are very much at risk at school. It's deeply unkind of people not to acknowledge that.

They arent at more risk.thats nonsense.

In fact they are probably amongst the safest demographic.

2 women are killed a week by men.
Men are killed by men all the time.

There have been what 10/11 murders of trans women in the last decade.

No one should be killed or hurt but this idea that they are so in danger is bollocks

There really needs to be more work around boys and men being accepting of difference, and to broaden what it means to be male, to include wearing dresses if you like them. This needs to be pushed back to men, not put upon girls and women.

The poncho shows that the school are taking steps to protect the boy's privacy but not that of the girls. That's what I would focus on.

In what way is the boy more at risk?

The thing is, if half the boys said they identified as girls, where is the line drawn? One boy to change with the girls, apparently fine. Two boys, still fine? Ten?

It's great this boy is being supported with his feelings. I work with a boy who wears a skirt to school and says he's a girl, he's year 3. We are careful to allow him to choose if the class is being split into boys and girls for some reason (not changing, I think they're still together for changing atm). But when they go swimming next term? I can't imagine he'll be changing with the girls.

What would the school do if a parent insisted their daughter, who wears trousers to school and likes "boy things", wants to change with the boys? I cannot see them allowing her to change under a poncho in the boys' changing room.

At the end of the day, regardless of who wants to get changed where, you will never be able to please everyone.

So surely it makes sense that the school looks to please the girls in this scenario (15 of them?) by keeping their changing room girls only, and if this boy genuinely doesn't want to change with the boys for fear of bullying, he changes in a separate cubicle, therefore his feelings are being acknowledged.

Just wanting to change elsewhere does not mean it should happen. I've taken school groups swimming and some children don't want to be in a room with other children to change full stop. But if you make allowances for one to change in a cubicle, you'd have to do it for all.

This is making an allowance for one but not considering others and just saying "This is how it'll be so tough". That's not acceptable, regardless of the fact we're talking about sexes.

(Sorry, just thoughts on a page - this has really got me thinking!)