8 year old boy wants to change with the girls

[FairytaleofBykerGrove]

I’ve been informed that a boy in my daughters class ‘feels like a girl’. He’s been wearing dresses to school for a while (fine) and now wants to change with the girls for swimming. Apparently the children will all accept it no problem and they’d like the parents to do the same. He will be under a poncho towel so we don’t have to worry about his privacy(?) I am really very unhappy with this. Which is why I’m up at 3 in the morning. The other parents I’ve spoken to don’t seem to care either way. I can’t understand it at all. Do you have any advice for me?

I would have to ask them why they are not considering the girls’ privacy. Changing is split into girls’ and boys’ bodies and that’s it.

And yes, tell the boys to be kind.

I'm cringing writing this, it's embarrassing and outing, so I've NCd... but DSis already knows I'm here waves and will still recognise me!

At 9, I was the only child in my class to have underarm hair. DM wouldn't let me remove it. It was impossible to hide from the other girls while changing for gym, so the whole class (and the neighbouring one, and the year group below us...) all knew. And it was of course on full display during mixed sex swimming lessons.

The other children would find reasons and ways to touch my armpits - while using a float, climbing out of the pool etc. I hate that it happened, but they were children; the adults in the situation, who saw what was happening (or were told by me) and did nothing to stop it, were fucking cruel.

25 years on, and I still struggle not to weep from shame remembering those lessons. I hate my underarms, so much so that it has made working in a short-sleeved uniform almost unbearable. I loathe my body hair, and panic if I think strangers might see it.

It is foolhardy to think that because they are "just children" they will be unaware of the differences between their bodies, and unaffected by any resulting comments // actions. I wasn't protected from my discomfort by single sex changing facilities, but I know it would have been even worse to have to change in front of the boys in my class, I can still quote verbatim some of the things said to me by them.

OP, I feel for you and your daughter, and for all children who are watching their privacy eroded by adults who ought to know better.

Sweet and gentle this boy maybe, it sends a message to young girls that their feelings and thoughts don't matter, their right to privacy and dignity does not matter. They don't matter. That they must prioritise the feelings of boys/men over their own every single time. How is that right?

If the young boy feels uncomfortable undressing with the boys then perhaps he should have his own special changing area to undress for swimming.

the thing is that of course most 8 year olds don't mind and don't see the problem. when they were 6 and 7 mixed sex changing was normal.

but by the time they are 10 several will mind very much - it will start at random as each individual hits puberty. it would be very rare for any child to be starting puberty at 8 which is precisely why we generally start separating the sexes for vulnerable situations at about that age - because it would be bad practice to have a cutoff age for mixed sex facilities which is too late for some children.

I would suggest making this the basis of your objection - that 8 year old girls are not in a position to understand why they may not be comfortable changing in a mixed sex environment at the age of 10/11. Therefore their lack of concern now should not be a factor. as adults we know that mixed sex situations can cause problems sometimes as children approach puberty - even if the people involved are all lovely and nice and kind, so it is ok to have boundaries. make sure you use the phrase "mixed sex" because that is what this is.

Oh, and in case of the almost inevitable "get therapy" comments... I have. More than once. But it doesn't erase the memories. And now I don't just have the feeling of shame, I have the anger that no one protected 9 year old me.

I think people who think boys and girls of 8 are entirely innocent and harmless are naive. Ds is 9. Hes a sweet child but theres no doubt that in a girls or wpmans changing area he would be noticing things. Its flat out inappropriate for children of this age to be changing with each other and an alternative plan needs to be made for this little boy.

I would object strongly. I went through puberty late. However aged 8 I was club swimming and doing regular competitions.

I hated getting changed in front of other girls and mums and would rush through it.

It was actually as a teenager that I didnt care so much (though would have been mortified changing in front of a boy).

It is not fair making girls put up with this and letting a boy see them getting changed, regardless of how the boy identifies.

My DC have changed for PE separately from girls since reception. My 8 year old boy would be embarrassed at a girl seeing him get changed.

I would complain to the school

Can you ask why there is any separation of facilities at that age? If one boy can simply choose to move changing rooms, then why not 2 or 3 or 12? Does wearing a dress have such a strong effect on the teachers?

My kids are 7 and 8. Whilst they are fine with seeing / been seen by each other without clothes, I noticed a real difference about 2 years ago in self consciousness around others when in a state of undress (eg our neighbours kids used to come round early on a Saturday morning to play and my kids weren't dressed yet. ) 8 is absolutely old enough to be self conscious of your own body, and in no way is it ok for these girls to be told that it's fine for this kid to see them in a state of undress, while the kid has a poncho. Awful trampling of boundaries.

Also to add that it is not ideal for the young boy and I feel for him but we have to think about all the children. Boundaries of what is acceptable for everyone need to be established.

My DD is not much younger than 8 and she is already uncomfortable with the idea of undressing around boys. It's not fair to the girls.

It seems to be pretty much universal that 8 is the age at which segregation by sex begins precisely because any later than that and some kids will be experiencing puberty. I had both periods and breasts at 9, and even fully dressed and sitting in a classroom every boy in my class noticed and made sure I knew they'd noticed. People who're all "oh but they're only little" have forgotten what it was like to be that age.

Pushing this at 8 is setting the kids up to go into puberty feeling that they have no right to want privacy and that if they express a wish to have it they'll get in trouble and be seen as bad people.That's a very dangerous lesson to send to all kids heading into puberty, particularly the girls.

At the end of the day, regardless of who wants to get changed where, you will never be able to please everyone. Most public swimming pools (if that is where lessons happen) don't have enough cubicles for everyone to get changes privately (that's my experience anyway).

From what I've read (and correct me if I'm wrong) the transgender child in question has been identifying as a girl for a while, including wearing 'feminine' clothes to school. Surely this already shows you that the boy isn't just 'barging in on the girls changing' as someone said earlier in the thread?

Whilst I understand the need to protect all children when changing, especially for swimming, can you not just take a moment to sympathise with the child in question? They must feel so confused in terms of their body, especially when they're starting to go through puberty - if they truly feel female, then the changes they are going through must feel awful.

And it's not just girls who should be kind, it's everyone. And I think some people on this thread could benefit from being kind and thinking before they post.

Am I missing something? Why don’t they make private arrangements for the boy?
Why make half of the class compromise when he could quite easily be given a separate space for changing? Or change 5 mins before or after?
Personally I would object. I also think it’s wrong to ask the 8yr old children to decide if they are ok with it.

Perhaps you could try being kind to the women here, dalishelf. It would certainly be a different approach from the one you're currently taking.

TheHairyBodParents . The posters who dismiss children's rights to privacy need to read your posts.
Yes to all those pointing out that this is where it starts - when we teach little girls that they must be naked (as that's what changing for swimming involves) in front of boys if a boy demands it.
And of course, this is why we have so much narcissistic entitlement from so many men who self identify as women - nobody ever said NO to them or pointed out that girls and women have rights. This child is at the centre of an adoring bubble where anything he wants he gets.

dalishelf
It is supremely unkind to all these girls to insist that they must strip naked in front of a boy.

It’s really important that girls learn from the earliest of ages that they put other people’s feelings before their own. Then when they are adults they will have no boundaries at all and be a doormat 🤦‍♀️

He can get changed with the other boys. They can learn to be kind.

Thanks again I am adding any extra concerns to my list. For information: there is no bullying that I know of, the boy is very popular and Well liked. He wants to be “one of the girls”. He will likely be wearing a girls swimsuit. There are no private cubicles other than toilets in the changing rooms. And there are already 9 year olds in the class - my own DD will be 9 this school year. She will be mortified when she finds out I’ve pushed back on this. I’m going to make an appt to discuss this next week when hopefully I have calmed down and won’t make a fool of myself

Be kiiiiind girls, be niiiice

Never be kiiiiind boys, be niiiice

Already at such a young age, we expect girls to put the feelings of a boy above their own under the guise of “being kind”

@TheProdigalKittensReturn @Languishingfemale How am I being unkind? As many people have pointed out, at the moment, it isn't an issue.

I think that on MN, people are very quick to jump on the 'transgender girls/boys who say they are girls are only doing it because they want to invade female only spaces!' wagon and 99% of the time, that simply isn't true. Especially when that person is 8 years old and a child!

As far as I'm concerned, transwomen of any age will be women. And there is a difference between transwomen and 'men who want to invade women only spaces and abuse them' (despite what most people say on the Feminism chats...)

So he gets to hide under a towel so he can hide his penis, yet be able to see the girls getting undressed. It doesn't matter if they are 8. There is no way my children would have been happy with this at that age. The girls boundaries are being broken down at a young age and they are being told to be kind and accept it. The boy can change with those who have the same body he does for god's sake. Just bloody say no.

I'd be asking - why the poncho? As it's effectively providing him with a third private space, why don't they just do it properly in a separate room?

‘They have already been told to be extra kind to him’. He hasn’t been told to be kind and consider the little girls? Of course not.

Exactly as @FearOfTheDuck said, I would also be asking what the school was going to do to tackle the unkindness that is being shown by the boys such that he doesn't want to change with them. Kindness works both ways...

You are being unkind, dalishelf, by completely disregarding the feelings of the women here, and our stories about our younger selves and how we would have felt about being put in the position those girls are being put in. And I think you know that.