Moral Maze - Radio 4 8pm 19 Feb - Transgender Rights

[CaveMum]

Transgender Rights is the topic of tonight’s episode.

Woman’s Place have tweeted that they are taking part and that the Labour pledge (and slurs against WPUK and LGB Alliance) will be discussed.

twitter.com/womans_place_uk/status/1229901138192891904?s=21

I also think male voices in this debate can help get the message through to men who are also the fathers of daughters, the husbands of wives, the sons of mothers, the brothers of sisters etc, to men who might otherwise listen and nod but think, 'not my fight'.

And I am grateful to everyone, female and male, who is brave enough to put their head over the parapet.

I wonder if Nandy was listening?

Not all men are like that #NAMALT

Someone needs to mention that to them

Say it loud - say it proud

Just listening to Fae now. Freudian slip with the puberty blockers: life put on pause, rather than puberty. Young girls with their life paused. Who would want that I wonder.

"I also think Kiri didn't say clearly enough that one of the main issues is that self id can be abused, it will allow men with no desire to be a woman identify as one in order to cause harm. She could have asked how would a self id law prevent this."

I disagree with this. As a female survivor of male sexual violence who has accessed single-sex groups for recovery, I would self-exclude from such a group if a male person attended, or even if I thought a male person might attend. And it would not matter whether they were utterly sincere in their gender identification, or whether they were personally completely benign (though how benign someone can be if attending a female-only space knowing they are not female is another question...).

Woman's Place UK is primarily focussed on single-sex exemptions, because those exemptions preserve female-only spaces and services and are also where the legal distinction between actual sex and legal sex is contained in law (since those exemptions can be invoked irrespective of GRC status). It's a complex argument, but it's not about self-id per se.

Thanks for your post PlontibatPlonit, I do agree with what you are saying and it is my arguement against self id, my post obviously wasn't clear.

Just learning about this debate. Are there issues with female to male trans accessing male spaces?

There was a lot of upset when a female transgender person attempted to use a mens 'bath house'

October 2018 Gay Star News
(extract)
"A London gay sauna kicked out a trans man for not having a penis.

26-year-old Jason Smith (not his real name) identifies as bisexual and says he’s a ‘very passable trans man’.

He decided to go to the Sailors Sauna in Limehouse in London’s East on Monday night (29 October) with a friend.

The transgender man was a little unsure about going to the sex-on-premises venue so he checked their website beforehand for any trans-specific policies." (continues)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410716-Transman-kicked-out-of-gay-sauna

I've post this on another thread but I would so much like to hear when the question "what is a woman?" asked that the response is "that's the wrong question, a woman is indisputably an adult human female. The question we should be asking is what is a trans woman and when does a man become a trans woman?".

The reason is that as soon as you engage with the question of "what is a woman?" there is the sub text that it is a matter of opinion and any answer is naturally defensive and "on the back foot".

As soon as the question is reversed we start to get to the core of this debate - that a man doesn't need to transition in any meaningful way. They don't need to take hormones, have surgery or uphold outdated and regressive sex stereotypes on how they present (dresses/make up/long hair/heels). The "become" a trans woman at the point they say they are.

This is who women are being expected to give up their sex based rights for.

Men who observe our sex when choosing the spaces that fit their "requirements" yet expect women to respect their gender in those spaces, whilst claiming not doing so is bigotry - oh the irony....

Thanks for the replies, they don’t seem as militant about having access, well I’ve not noticed as much about it.

Full transcript now up on this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3827771-Moral-Maze-Radio-4-8pm-19-Feb-Transcript

Some of the most interesting, subtle pieces within it:

Rachel Mann, transwoman, saying But I just, can’t we just push back about, on, on boundaries...

And Rachel, again, saying, when asked about the basis of the definition of woman: Well I have a take, and my take is this, that definitions always leave things out

Well, yes. That's sort of the point of defining things! We seem to have come to the point that even definitions seem to be positioned as unkind and a bit mean. Stop defining things women, that's not nice!

May 2018
"A term after an Oxford college introduced gender-neutral lavatories, male students have carried out a “dirty protest” over losing their urinals.

Last week they urinated on the floor of the “gender-neutral” cubicles in the bar at Somerville College, Oxford, and wrote on the wall: “We want our f urinals back”, according to an email sent by the president of the junior common room, Niall Macklin. In a message entitled “I can’t believe I am writing this”, Macklin said: “[Last night] someone took it upon themselves to urinate on the floor of one of the cubicles and inscribe ‘We want our f urinals back’. If you have a problem with the changes please use the democratic process and not dirty protests."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3241624-dirty-protest-over-somerville-college-oxford-s-gender-neutral-loos

2016. Trabsman barred from gym after men complain about sharing a changing room.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3576566/Transgender-man-born-woman-banned-male-changing-room-gym-BREASTS.html

I would also wonder that women to man trans are raised and socialised as women at first and don’t have that male entitlement that some men are raised and socialised with. Therefore man to woman trans are able to vocalise their ‘i am entitled to’ better that a female to male trans perhaps.
Just a thought as I say just coming to the debate.

I am not 'asking' for single sex spaces.
You are the one 'asking' or rather telling us to remove single sex spaces.

We are not asking for single sex spaces. We HAVE single sex spaces. We want to keep them.

Transman barred from gym after men complain about sharing a changing room

It's interesting. Men can defend their spaces and no-one expects them to chant the mantra "Transmen are men" or deny the reality of what they see.

I sometimes wonder what would happen if I encountered an obvious transwoman in my gym changing room. I think I would ask to see the gym manager.

But I would be very very nervous, because I know it is just as likely that I'd either be asked to "Be kind" or indeed, be considered myself to be the problem, and lose my gym membership.

But blokes - well they have to have their spaces!

I thought Graham Linehan made an interesting point about wanting men to make men's spaces comfortable for transwomen.

I would also wonder that women to man trans are raised and socialised as women at first and don’t have that male entitlement that some men are raised and socialised with.

For me this is the root of the whole thing.

A woman is someone who experiences life as a biological female. The way her body is, what it does, the way people treat her, the depictions of how people with bodies like hers are expected to act.

I cannot accept as a woman a person who hasn't lived those experiences from birth.

And one of the many concerns I have with TWAW is that if we allow the definition of women to include TW, TWs' male entitlement will cause them to shout loudest and become a disproportionate percentage of the voices representing women, despite having no experience of living with female socialisation.

if we allow the definition of women to include TW, TWs' male entitlement will cause them to shout loudest and become a disproportionate percentage of the voices representing women, despite having no experience of living with female socialisation.

^^ Couldn't agree more with this. It was strongly reinforced by recent threads discussing the experience of young trans boys attending support groups who had been instructed to be quiet and listen to the (adult) trans women who lectured them on their privilege. Yes, young transitioning FtM who were grappling with the biological reminders of their sexed bodies were told that this was a privilege and discussing it as dysphoria was 'triggering' for the trans women.

It feels entirely plausible that hierarchies of identity politics would mean a very unfamiliar perspective on women's issues and lived experience.

if we allow the definition of women to include TW, TWs' male entitlement will cause them to shout loudest and become a disproportionate percentage of the voices representing women, despite having no experience of living with female socialisation.

Yes, interestingly I have yet to find a transwoman fighting with me for more job share roles to be made available or for job security during pregnancy or coming back from maternity leave in small businesses.

Yes, the main comment I've seen about women's work is about sex work is work. Not much about, say, normalising part time and flexible working for both men and women.

Yes, interestingly I have yet to find a transwoman fighting with me for more job share roles to be made available or for job security during pregnancy or coming back from maternity leave in small businesses.

Or the fact a transwoman is crowing on Twitter about the defunding of the Vancouver refuge that serves women.

And Rachel, again, saying, when asked about the basis of the definition of woman: Well I have a take, and my take is this, that definitions always leave things out

On this one, a while back a female academic carefully explained to me that as white men wrote the dictionary, we can't see dictionary definitions as valid for everyone and they should be considered biased. I was rather speechless at the time. She also referred to us both as cis. Now, I would have more words to reply with after coming onto this Board. This could be where the conmment above is coming from.

Rachel Mann, transwoman, saying But I just, can’t we just push back about, on, on boundaries...

No female socialisation there.