Moral Maze - Radio 4 8pm 19 Feb - Transgender Rights

[CaveMum]

Transgender Rights is the topic of tonight’s episode.

Woman’s Place have tweeted that they are taking part and that the Labour pledge (and slurs against WPUK and LGB Alliance) will be discussed.

twitter.com/womans_place_uk/status/1229901138192891904?s=21

Magic

Rachel Mann, transwoman, saying But I just, can’t we just push back about, on, on boundaries...

Indeed - whose boundaries - my daughters??.

That’s a no from me.

Seriously, Mann has a very interesting take on what being a woman is...

@Floral

No corrosive sexist stereotypes here...

Is the ‘orange’ what my DDs will be emulating in a few years?

Women write about sexist stereotypes too - but I did find this troubling...

Quotes from The Revd Canon Rachel Mann from the transcript by pombear

Into to Michael Buerk:
MB: Do you regard those who think you are not a real woman as bigoted?

RM: Bigoted is not a word I would use. Let’s just say, I would hope with a little more conversation and information they might be a little more generous.

To Kiri Tunks:
RM?:: But, but specifically women don’t have lots of rights in all kinds of areas, but I’m talking about the specific rights you want way from transwomen Why do you need to protect that space? What’s your biggest fear against them?

RM?: That’s true, but that’s, where’s the evidence to show. I mean most violence against women are by heterosexual men, not by transwomen. There’s no real evidence to show that transwomen are a real threat to women

RM?: so, so a lot of this is, you’re protecting, you’re almost pre-empting something that might not ever happen. Because you are…Let me get to this. Because you are focused on protecting your rights, hard won rights, I acknowledge. But what about those rights of those people who are already feeling very vulnerable and feel they have no place where they can call home.

RM: But don’t you think you have a rather reductionist idea of what a woman is? Biological? I mean, looking at you now, and I’m not judging you by genetic criteria, I’m actually just encountering you as a woman, a[nd] I hope you’re encountering me as a woman

RM: So is the implication of your position that those who support transwomen, transpeople in their self-identification, which include many non trans women, non trans-lesbians, lgb people, lgbt people, that they’re actually kind of dupes, that they’ve bought into something ridiculous…

RM: And very finally, the government are on record at saying that that if self-ID is permitted, the, there will be no change to the provision of women-only spaces and services under the Equality Act 2010. So actually, to what extent is your campaign a surrogate for something else, a proxy for?

To Graham Linehan
RM: Graham, in a recent Newsnight interview you compared the prescription of puberty blockers to children to Nazi eugenics programmes. How much do you regret saying that, amongst many other things?

RM: But I just, can’t we just push back about, on, on boundaries. To what extent does the kind of position you advocate keep trans people as either oddities, curiosities, or require them to see themselves as pathological, sad, shameful beings?

RM: Well I have a take, and my take is this, that definitions always leave things out. I’m much more interested in, in another philosophical idea which is family resemblance. So there are lots of ways in which my story’s different to Anne’s, or Mona’s, but actually we do have a family resemblance sufficient that it’s OK for me to be identified as a woman. And I think that’s partly because of the way in which I’m treated in this society, actually. I am a woman.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3827771-Moral-Maze-Radio-4-8pm-19-Feb-Transcript

Creepy video wtf

apologies, final quote was part of the panel discussion at the end, in response to Michael Buerke & Michael Portillo's comments about the primary need to define what a woman was. Rachael Mann's response followed Michael Portillo's to the question:

MB a lot of it was to do with definitions, isn’t it, and er, and erm, er their definition was if you live as a woman, er they are a woman. Michael, you seemed rather unimpressed by this at the time?

RM: Well I have a take, and my take is this, that definitions always leave things out. I’m much more interested in, in another philosophical idea which is family resemblance. So there are lots of ways in which my story’s different to Anne’s, or Mona’s, but actually we do have a family resemblance sufficient that it’s OK for me to be identified as a woman. And I think that’s partly because of the way in which I’m treated in this society, actually. I am a woman.

Seriously, Mann has a very interesting take on what being a woman is

errrgh, that is borderline voyueristic. Certainly sleazy.

It reminds me of what a friend said - whispering fiercely & angrily in case her witchness (what a t**f is nowadays) was overheard: "They have no idea what it is like to be raised a girl. They have no idea of what we go through from birth, and how we are treated."

Right so Mann as a young man leered at girls walking down the bus in heels. Mann is right about one thing, that girl was learning what it is to grow into a woman in the world.

Yeah that video gave me the creeps.

And I doubt it was Mann's intention, but shows the chasm that exists between people born and socialised male and female.

What Mann has just described is the "male gaze".

"They have no idea what it is like to be raised a girl. They have no idea of what we go through from birth, and how we are treated."

So much this

Not only do they have no idea what it's like or how we are treated, judging by that video, they are the reason for it, the actual reason.

Rachel Mann's poem about a girl on the bus is really horrible. I don't think it is intentionally so. I think it is jealously as I expect Rachel Mann wanted to be that girl becoming woman with what is 'perceived' by males as 'power'. That which many of would see as actually a lack of power!

2014 interview with Rachel Mann in 'Christian Today

(extract)
"A person's view on sexuality, a 'test' used by many in evangelical circles to determine whether a Christian is 'sound' or 'saved', could soon be a thing of the past, according to the lesbian cleric recently made a minor canon of Manchester Cathedral.

Canon Rachel Mann, 44, said she believed a shift was currently taking place in the area of sexuality in the same way it did on slavery two centuries ago.

She was honoured with the title of Minor Canon at Manchester, which has the second highest LGBT population in the country outside London, for her work as resident poet at the cathedral. The honour also signals however a potential tectonic shift in the established Church's often-tormented approach to the issue of sexuality. Could it mark the beginning of an era where it is possible to be both an 'orthodox' Christian yet 'liberal' on the gay issue?

Canon Mann, priest-in-charge of St Nicholas Burnage near Didsbury in south Manchester for six years, was born a boy, in the working class end of Hartlebury. The Bishops of Worcester until recently lived in the castle, which is at the posh end of the village.

She realised at just five that she had what is now called 'gender dysphoria' and has written eloquently about her journey to her true self, a trans lesbian, in her book Dazzling Darkness, a best-seller in LGBT church circles. In her poetry book, The Risen Dust, she also writes movingly about her spiritual journey.

She "came out" in her twenties and finished "transitioning" in 1995. Her birth certificate now, "joyously!" she says, has her as "female", made possible by the Gender Recognition Act of 2004. The law, and therefore the Church, sees her as a woman at every level. "I see myself as a woman too," she says. "However, it's important that I also acknowledge my journey so I also see myself as a 'trans woman'. This is by way of contrast with someone like yourself who queer theorists and theologians would call a 'cis woman.' This is an area of controversy in the trans community because increasingly trans people are asking for the option to call themselves, for example on official documents, as trans rather than 'man' or 'woman'. I am really too middle-aged and settled to see myself as anything other than as a woman." (continues)

www.christiantoday.com/article/transgender.priest.made.minor.canon.at.manchester.cathedral/37934.htm

This is by way of contrast with someone like yourself who queer theorists and theologians would call a 'cis woman.'

Im aware that queer theory re-names women as 'cis' but in what way is this something used by theologists, unless they are queer theorists who also study theology?

Well eat your heart out, EJ Thribb

In response to the girl wiedling her arse like a weapon, I offer this:

A word for you to use
A girl without a cause
A name for what you lose
When it was never yours

A name the girl outgrew
The girl was never real
She stands for your abuse
The girl is no ideal

This is interesting (from that article, italics mine) The law, and therefore the Church, sees her as a woman at every level
There is no "and therefore" when it comes to the church. A trans man would not be allowed to be a Catholic priest. The law can allow for divorce and remarriage and gay marriage without any church going along with it.

This is an area of controversy in the trans community because increasingly trans people are asking for the option to call themselves, for example on official documents, as trans rather than 'man' or 'woman'. I am really too middle-aged and settled to see myself as anything other than as a woman.

Since when have the views of middle-aged women been allowed to stand in the way of progress? Sounds like a good idea, though would need to be in conjunction with accurate recording of sex for medical reasons if nothing else.

”To what extent does the kind of position you advocate keep trans people as either oddities, curiosities, or require them to see themselves as pathological, sad, shameful beings?”
I loved GL’s response about trans delusions making that a self fulfilling prophecy

Mann's poem is sleazy and misogynistic.

"They have no idea what it is like to be raised a girl. They have no idea of what we go through from birth, and how we are treated."

This should be on T shirts.

Women don't write poems about other women's arses.

I mean most violence against women are by heterosexual men, not by transwomen.

If I were writing a definition of "specious" I think I would use this as an example.
The vast majority of transwomen are heterosexual males. A fact of which Mann is perfectly aware.

I find it astonishing that a male person can go on Radio 4 and redefine lesbian women as "non-trans lesbians", and no one says anything.
So oppressed.

The vast majority of transwomen are heterosexual males.

Including Rachel Mann.