Moral Maze - Radio 4 8pm 19 Feb - Transgender Rights

[CaveMum]

Transgender Rights is the topic of tonight’s episode.

Woman’s Place have tweeted that they are taking part and that the Labour pledge (and slurs against WPUK and LGB Alliance) will be discussed.

twitter.com/womans_place_uk/status/1229901138192891904?s=21

This "family resemblance" thing. I'm physically almost identical to my sister but we are very different in terms of interests and experiences. Although....
You can tell my brother and I are siblings and, superficially, we have similar interests and some similar experiences. But we are quite different on many points not just biologically.
Although...
At a recent family reunion where we were all there with spouses and children, it was clear that we three had a number of ideas about things in common that only we had.
This is human, familial interaction as it plays out for us. Doesn't mean you tear up important boundaries amongst all humans.

The reaction on Twitter is almost entirely positive towards the GC side. I don't know how TRAs can think GC is a minority opinion.

Glinner has tweeted over night that the Rev Mann has blocked him on Twitter. Nice Christian attitude there.

Michael Portillo does have a twitter account but it’s been dormant since August 2019. I wonder if some love bombing to the account might awaken it. Perhaps some invitations to attend WPUK conferences, meet with concerned women would help bring him fully into the light. Love him or loathe him he probably still has influence amongst his political peers, many of who, now sit in HoL.

@portilloandhen is the handle.

I thought this was a step in the right direction - the two Michaels really did get it. I can see now why #nodebate was necessary as it really falls apart under logical questioning (thank you Michael P) and there are no answers. I loved it when Torr tried to argue that comparing transwomen to rapists was transphobic and Michael firmly rebutted that he had done that. We need more expert’s especially scientists to be on these programmes to rebut the ‘science has moved on from your O-level knowledge’ arguments.

I’m becoming more and more annoyed as this ‘living as a woman’ shtick - stop demeaning my existence and experiences. I’m becoming less willing to compromise now.

I think part of the problem is that the discussion is so wide ranging that one programme can’t cover it all - right now the Labour Party have focused it on single sex spaces and freedom of speech. In the run up to the Olympics expect it to shift over to sport and a whole new wave of awareness.
If you are up for more of this Michael Portillo and Ash Sakar are on Quesrion Time tonight and a question on the Labour Party is really likely.

My favourite moment was when Gliner said, ‘the word women is already taken’ and the questioner (Mann I think) was left saying ‘but, but...’

I haven't heard it yet but well done Glinner for getting that one in!

The word 'black' is also already taken and if i claimed to be 'trans-black' black people would have every right to ridicule me and tell me to stfu/ get some psychiatric help.

I don't know how anyone coming to this debate for the first time would have found the discussion, but to me the reverend Mann came across bullying in tone, not measured at all, vindictive even. Portillo was the voice of reason, I was delighted with the way he handled Torr, he completely saw through him. I think I looked to the heavens when, after Mona(?) failed to comprehend why definitions matter, he came back to that and spelled out it's because we're talking about a change to the law. I was hopeful he was going to be GC for some reason and he really exceeded any expectations.

So much love for Glinner and Michael.

Thank you both for supporting women.

Portillo was a big surprise. In a good way. I was an 80s teen so I remember That Night for him. He really has reinvented himself as a voice of sensible reflection. He went through a most public of takedowns and I think that makes his thoughtful approach more acceptable to people who've never thought about this before.
I think Glinner is trying to be that in this debate - it's mad that he's forced into this position- but his comic genius makes it hard not to throw some WTAF at it.
The "briefing" bollocks is pure tabloid crap - just grab a few misinterpreted out of context headlines. I have to write briefings in real life. In my old life I had to brief myself to represent my office in very public fora , including in the media once or twice. If I'd dared used such shoddy briefing, I'd have been flayed alive.

Holy shit, though. You'd think that the time might be approaching when TRA/MRAs would be dropping the really embarrassing bits of the ideology because of how clearly it shows it up made of ether, but no. This still has my jaw dropping. Asking for single sex spaces damages trans validation. Why are they not blushing when they say these things?

Just tweeted thanks to Mp, thanks for the heads up.

We need to get the #WomanIsTaken hashtag going.

Asking for single sex spaces damages trans validation.

Please could anyone remind me when women and girls were asked and gave consent to be used and viewed whilst naked in single sex spaces as validation therapy for males?

Women and girls - objects to enable men...

Ffs. I’m writing thank you cards to Kiri, Michael P & Graham. I’ve found an address for M P’s booking agent. Waiting to hear from WPUK for a postal address and Graham, hmm maybe just ‘Graham Norwich’ might work!

"the material urgency of validation"

I've not listened yet so I may come back frothing, but just the fact that it's happened is a sign of how far we've come. I cannot imagine the BBC hosting this a year ago.

Portillo losing his seat was one of my personal highlights of 1997 but it was the making of him. Or maybe he was thoughtful and decent all along and I was the nob.

I've just listened and feel quite positive. I think we have come a long way. Portillo was particularly good.

Asking for single sex spaces damages trans validation.

So not just having single sex spaces but even asking for them is now frowned upon.

Why is it the job of girls and women to validate TW?

Why is it the job of girls and women to validate TW?

I could guess at the answer, but I'm not sure I can say it here.

I think the thing with Portillo (note - I was a child in the 80s/early 90s so had no major political knowledge) is that he was an man of principles (even if we don’t agree with said principles) and he stuck to them. If he was given a job, he did it. As someone else said earlier on this thread, many politicians of his generation look, in hindsight, like giants compared to many of the shower we have today.

Portillo losing his seat was one of my personal highlights of 1997 but it was the making of him. Or maybe he was thoughtful and decent all along and I was the nob

This made me laugh floisme. Same here.

DickKerrLadies

I can guess where your thoughts might be heading.

Who would look at a five-year-old girl, a sexual assault survivor or a frail elderly woman and order them to prioritise the validation of TW? It's bonkers.

Kiri Tunks emphasises male violence and the whole issue of safety from violence in women's spaces, and of course this is a serious & valid concern; especially for those working with vulnerable women and children; however, I do think the 'male violence issue' can get over-emphasised and make it sound as if this is the only issue, when of course it is not the only issue ( as far as I can see); and it can end up sounding somewhat alarmist, and therfore easy to refute, dismiss or question.

I know I keep going on about this - but for most women and girls, in most situations, the issue is one of privacy and dignity - and the need & rights to single sex spaces on account of these needs.

Jane Fae suggested that "women's spaces are social spaces". No, they are not social spaces, as such, other than the fact they exist in society. What they are is spaces designated on the basis of biological sex - and the reason they are necessary is because women and girls have certain vulnerabilities on account of these physical and biological differences.

It's infuriating when you realise that the general public are, perhaps for the first time, hearing these nonsense arguments from these TRAs. And the refutations that we are very used are not always forthcoming.

But I genuinely think this issue is now on an irreversible path. These questions are being asked. People will understand the issues. And, as ever, it's what comes out of the TRAs own mouths that will convince people.

We know the motivation is to force women to validate males. We know it. And they can't help but show it. We just need patience.

Jane Fae suggested that "women's spaces are social spaces".

I mean, why do these people think that women fought for single sex spaces in the first place?