Moral Maze - Radio 4 8pm 19 Feb - Transgender Rights

[CaveMum]

Transgender Rights is the topic of tonight’s episode.

Woman’s Place have tweeted that they are taking part and that the Labour pledge (and slurs against WPUK and LGB Alliance) will be discussed.

twitter.com/womans_place_uk/status/1229901138192891904?s=21

It is a longer path than we would like, but letting the sunlight in works.

Agree with what is being said on the other thread about toning down the feminist terminology - such as 'patriarchal oppression', 'male violence' etc Just speaking in plain English, in an accessible way, that people can relate to is all that is required to make the points clear.

This comment from Mossyrock bears repeating:

Who would look at a five-year-old girl, a sexual assault survivor or a frail elderly woman and order them to prioritise the validation of TW? It's bonkers

'Asking for single sex spaces...'

Another linguistic sleight of hand. As though women are the ones trying to change the set up that has worked for generations.

Agree with what is being said on the other thread about toning down the feminist terminology - such as 'patriarchal oppression', 'male violence' etc Just speaking in plain English, in an accessible way, that people can relate to is all that is required to make the points clear.

Plain old sexism often works best!

Validation? Haven't we, as women, endlessly validated men our entire lives at our own expense? This latest shitshow is a step too far I think for most women. We have (or had) single sex spaces so we could be safe from male violence, but keeping ourselves away from them while they continue unencumbered by the need to change their behaviour obviously isn't enough. IT IS NEVER ENOUGH. We have to say NO and mean it, 😡

7Days

Asking for single sex spaces...

Another linguistic sleight of hand. As though women are the ones trying to change the set up that has worked for generations

Yes, over the years lots of people have pointed to the manipulation in the language the TRAs use.

It's something we all need to be aware off and be able to put the question back to them in the without their manipulation spin on it.

I not very good at it but to the above statement a reply along the lines off.....

I am not 'asking' for single sex spaces.
You are the one 'asking' or rather telling us to remove single sex spaces.

Agree with what is being said on the other thread about toning down the feminist terminology - such as 'patriarchal oppression', 'male violence' etc Just speaking in plain English, in an accessible way, that people can relate to is all that is required to make the points clear.

I think it's important to talk about male violence but it has to be in context, e.g. stats on sex offenders, and always pointing out that all TWs are male, because so many people who don't know much about this issue get the impression that a TW is a woman (female).

I am not 'asking' for single sex spaces. You are the one 'asking' or rather telling us to remove single sex spaces.

Yes! Followed by "and my answer is a non-negotiable 'no' "

Jane Fae suggested that "women's spaces are social spaces".

No doubt for Fae they are, social spaces which Fae wants to be social in & seems to have seen this as a 'right' from the start of identifying publically as transgender.

September 2018 article By Allison Herrera
''Transgender women are women,' organizers say after controversy over women-only pond in London'
(extract)
"Jane Faye was early in her transition from male to female when she was accosted before entering the women's changing area. It was a Saturday morning, and she was getting ready to step into the pool with her then 5-year-old son. A man appeared out of nowhere and threatened her.

“This man just hogged the way. And said, 'You're not going in there.' And I said, "Why not?" And he just said, 'Well, I'm going to hit you if you do,'” said Faye, who lives north of London.

It was a terrifying moment. "And I think [among] the various lessons I learned very early on in transition is that men were dangerous.”

So, when Faye first heard about the Hampstead Heath Ladies' Pond, a women-only swimming pond in the middle of London, she assumed it was a safe space for all women, including transgender women like herself. “The general feeling is that at present, at least in this country, trans people have rights,” she said. " (continues)
www.pri.org/stories/2018-09-25/transgender-women-are-women-organizers-say-after-controversy-over-women-only-pond

I'm not too surprised by Portillo. I think his fall from power tempered him, and it may be relevant that part of what pushed him out was homophobia.

Jane Fae suggested that "women's spaces are social spaces".

I mean, why do these people think that women fought for single sex spaces in the first place?

I'll have to listen again, but I think Fae or possibly the Rev was implying that spaces have been 'given' to women by social agreement and can now be taken away.

Having listened to the whole thing, it is just batshit crazy....biology is real-women are at risk of being raped & getting pregnant-that is why we have single sex spaces. Allowing transwomen in those spaces renders them mixed sex, which is not what women want. Its really very simple. A man may 'feel' like a woman, but feelings and surgery can not turn a man into a woman.

I have to say Portillo was brilliant. He identified the core issue straight off the bat (transwomen are men).
And Graham has come a long way, he really got some key points across despite the efforts of someone in the studio who started screeching over him every time he mentioned an awkward topic or name, and wasn't afraid to say that his TS mates are men.

I'll have to listen again, but I think Fae or possibly the Rev was implying that spaces have been 'given' to women by social agreement and can now be taken away.

I wonder if they equate this to women gaining access to social spaces formally exclusive to men where power was rested?

Surely Michael Portillo's stance was fairly predictable, given that the movement is often homophobic? I wasn't surprised in any case. I thought he was a sane and sensible voice.

I must admit that to an external observer, Kiri and Graham would have sounded more audibly nervous (talking fast, slight stuttering) than the pro-trans people, and that that will have affected how well they came across. Practice will temper that, I am sure (I've heard Kiri Tunks speak to a more welcoming audience before and she was marvellous).

Kiri and Graham would have sounded more audibly nervous (talking fast, slight stuttering) than the pro-trans people, and that that will have affected how well they came across

It's understandable given that Kiri and Graham represent the side that is constantly under attack and being suppressed. The TRAs don't have to worry about getting any facts across, they mostly just spout endless variations of TWAW.

I found it bizarre that Fae was allowed to blather all that nonsense about puberty blockers etc.

I was disappointed in the WPUK representative as they came across as very nervous and sounded quite shrill which I thought undermined her arguments.

I didn't hear anyone refer to the social exclusion of women who cannot share spaces with male bodied people. Or that self ID puts transwomen at risk from men abusing self ID.

@MrsCollinssettled I think they were all conscious of the time constraints and didn't want to sabotage themselves by making every single point that could be made. This debate is so easily diverted with cats bum face/sad face from TRA.

Great opening by Michael Portillo. I also enjoyed the abrupt stop to that phrase about ‘you are accusing trans people of paedophila’ that is trotted out. Infuriated with the ‘protocols’ yes they are in place already - separate sex facilities, we are not waiting for incidents to occur ffs.

A link to the show on YouTube

m.youtube.com/watch?feature=share&v=1XCck0uEodM

I also think Kiri didn't say clearly enough that one of the main issues is that self id can be abused, it will allow men with no desire to be a woman identify as one in order to cause harm. She could have asked how would a self id law prevent this.

There is a LGBT hustings for the leadership candidates later on today, will be interesting.

I think it's important to talk about male violence but it has to be in context

Yes, but giving it a specific label - Male Violence - can also alienate many right from the off......It can sound like people are being given a politically correct lecture from 'man hating feminists', and insinuates all men are violent. ( Obviously I know that's not what is intended - but the style and method of delivery is really important if the arguments are to be inclusive and easy to understand and relate to.

I'm not concerned about trans-women being violent in female toilets and changing rooms, so much as feeling uncomfortable in very sexually specific sorts of ways..........there is an inherent and instinctive sympathy when it comes to biological sex, I think - that trans women don't share ( & that is quite obvious, because if they did they would not be trying to force their way in).