Moral Maze - Radio 4 8pm 19 Feb - Transgender Rights

[CaveMum]

Transgender Rights is the topic of tonight’s episode.

Woman’s Place have tweeted that they are taking part and that the Labour pledge (and slurs against WPUK and LGB Alliance) will be discussed.

twitter.com/womans_place_uk/status/1229901138192891904?s=21

I wonder if they equate this to women gaining access to social spaces formally exclusive to men where power was rested?

There's a bit of that going on subconsciously for sure. It's a classic MRA argument.

It's all "lie for us! Why won't you just be nice and lie for us? Every time a c*s woman speak the truth a trans woman dies!"

Or Kiri could have said how can a women know that someone with a penis in their changing rooms/toilets is genuinely a non binary person or a perverted man ?

No doubt for Fae they are, social spaces which Fae wants to be social in & seems to have seen this as a 'right' from the start of identifying publically as transgender

Absolutely. The place where Fae can display their 'feminine credentials' and chit-chat.

I must admit that to an external observer, Kiri and Graham would have sounded more audibly nervous (talking fast, slight stuttering) than the pro-trans people

Yes, they did.......whereas the Reverand Mann and Fae sounded to be really enjoying the sound of their own voice ( "Self promotion" as Portillo pointed out in Fae's case). Fae almost seemed to be attempting to flirt with Portillo.

What I would like to see from prominent males allies in this discussion next, is for some concerted agreement to stop appearing when there are perfectly capable, and articulate higher profile women who could make these arguments with significant authority.

Couldn’t disagree more. For one, people need to listen and the word ‘feminist’ is poison (why did TERF become so popular as a slur to throw even when the people it’s being aimed at clearly aren’t feminist?). And it will obviously irk feminists but people listen to men more. The debate isn’t at a point of tidying up loose ends, it’s still at a point where an increase in exposure is needed.

But secondly, Linehan made some points that women can’t make. He referred to trans women who disagree with the narrative. He called them his brothers. With their consent. That was powerful. And he said that this is a men’s problem for men that men need to solve. It was a call to men. He’s saying ‘stop making this a women’s problem’.

I'm not going to argue about Linehan again, but I'm really not going to nod and smile without comment about 'feminists being irked that people listen to men more'. My first comment was very positive about Linehan, but I'm not about to just leave it there, given that he did indeed make a rather enormous mess of Newsnight, and there are women with authority who could speak, or write articles.

I am fully aware that our society listens to the male voices more than the female ones. I want to challenge that and ask men who are allies to do the same. I'm not sure what there is to disagree with there, from an FWR perspective, given that we are allowed to express more nuance than just a very black and white "Any means necessary" approach. Though obviously you are free to do so. I just think we benefit when we thoughtfully critique these approaches.

is genuinely a non binary person

And what does that even mean. Everyone can see right through that label, I'm pretty certain.

A talk piece on Radio 4 yesterday featured two young women: one of whom was identifying as 'non-binary' because she wanted to reject gender roles and expectations; and the other working in the male dominated field of metal work.

The young metal worker was by far the most articulate on how gender expectations and roles were confining and oppressive - using examples of attitudes and behaviour towards her as a lone female in her own work place. She said she didn't reject her gender - she rejected sexist roles and stereotypes. It did make the non-binary woman seem a bit precious, as well as a product of a very specific culture.

On the subject of male spokespersons. Perhaps inviting them on is a deliberate tactic so that we argue among ourselves. Do you think they don't already have a list of women who could argue clearly and articulately. Do you really think they would invite one of them on rather than someone with no experience of this kind of media debate?

Or Kiri could have said how can a women know that someone with a penis in their changing rooms/toilets is genuinely a non binary person or a perverted man ?

Aside from the fact that clearly, one can’t, it doesn’t matter. Someone with a penis (SWAP!) is as much of a ‘schrodinger’s rapist’ threat whether they identify as a man, woman, non-binary, genderfree or don’t care about gender identity at all. Survivors of sexual abuse will have as much of a visceral triggering reaction to their presence no matter what their identity or how lovely an individual person they may be. Many, many women just wanting privacy and dignity in a single-sex space will feel just as uncomfortable around them. You don’t need to be able to tell; it doesn’t matter; their gender identity does not change their sex, and access to a women-only space is (or should be) based on sex.

Imnobody4, I've no doubt you are right at some level there, yes. Perhaps 'arguing amongst ourselves' is a reach in terms of an explicit aim, but I certainly think that outlets like the BBC have absolutely no vested interest in platforming the very articulate women who repeatedly nail the significant points here.

Yes, but giving it a specific label - Male Violence - can also alienate many right from the off

Fair point. I think it's often used as a way to point out that TW are male people (since we're not allowed to put it in more simple terms), but you're right, as a phrase it's too loaded and alienating for people who aren't aware of or interested in sex differences in crime.

Men policing other men around women is a long standing thing in real life that is generally considered an indicator of a man being a "good sort". Whether we like this or not it is most certainly pervasive, so hearing men say "I don't bloody think so mate" is very effective in gaining public recognition of the issues.

Until now the male voices heard publicly have been telling women it is all fine, so budge up ladies and be kind.

In my experience, men judge other men's intentions far more harshly than women. This will be useful when men realise what is being implemented by the backdoor.

We need sunlight on these topics. If that means more male voices to begin with then so be it.

Justhadathought what was that talk piece, please? I'd be interested to hear it.

We need sunlight on these topics. If that means more male voices to begin with then so be it.

In pure pragmatism terms, maybe so. But this is FWR, and the posters here do tend to subject things to a feminist analysis.

I think the opposite. I think that the last thing TRAs want is male spokespeople. Without them, the can frame the argument as women arguing amongst themselves, as Fae (I think) attempted last night. Because trans women are women, this is simply women arguing how many angels you can fit on a pinhead. Or worse, women being bitchy to other women (like those nasty feminists from the 70s did).

Men saying ‘ffs this is men doing that thing they do, oppressing women’ is shocking and jarring. And needed.

Justhadathought what was that talk piece, please? I'd be interested to hear it

Yesterday morning session; 11am: My name is...Haley: asking for rejection.

It comes on just over half way through at about 15.20 ( mins):www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl7j/2020/02/19

I think it's probably as unhelpful to view TRA as a homogenous whole with only one opinion about how to press their case as it is for visitors to this board to call us a hive mind, tbh. I think some of them clearly favour quiet subterfuge, but there are definitely some who have enough eagerness to display specific sex dominance that they do things differently. And all sorts of other motivations in the mix.

Thanks!

www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl7j/2020/02/19

Hopefully this link will work. you may have to have your own log-in.

My use of the term 'non binary' was clumsy, meant someone who thinks of themselves that way.

Cwenthrth I agree with you that obviously women can't tell, it was the point I was trying to make though obviously not done very well !

And he said that this is a men’s problem for men that men need to solve.

I think that's true. I'm so fed up of hearing the narrative that poor trans women are at risk in men's jails, men's toilets, men's changing rooms etc. Why should that be women's problem to solve? It's really not. Let men work it out for themselves.

One very important point that Posie often makes is that dads understand that e.g. allowing boys into girls' changing rooms is a bad idea because they know what teenage boys are like. They've been teenage boys. The sooner fathers around the country wake up to what's going on the better.

I think that's true. I'm so fed up of hearing the narrative that poor trans women are at risk in men's jails, men's toilets, men's changing rooms etc.

Not all men are like that #NAMALT

Someone needs to mention that to them

Not all men are like that #NAMALT

Someone needs to mention that to them