Impressive new article by Debbie Hayton.

[Umyeahnah]

I've not been Debbie's biggest fan, but this is changing my view. Thankyou Debbie for owning your autogynaphilia, and writing about it .

The irony is I'm not sure guidelines allow me to use that word?

quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

I've been mistrustful of Debbie since I heard that he made his students call him "Miss," (hopefully he's stopped that now?) and a few other things.

But when a man is willing to acknowledge their AGP, and recognize that they have no claim whatsoever to women's spaces or language, and no claim to expect anyone to (out of politeness or in response to coercion) to pretend we think he or any man is a women, I can respect him. In fact, I want to support them, especially for the sake of young or naive AGP men who are getting sucked into this batshit ideology.

And if they want to go around in dresses and make up, that will help break the idiotic stereotype that such things are really a part of womanhood.

I'm disgusted by the porny ones, but I'd like to see porniness decoupled from what's supposedly "feminine." (Obviously not what AGPs are trying to do, but anyway...)
The more AGP is exposed and understood, the better it is for women who are deciding whether to enter relationships or not.

I'd imagine that a fair few TRAs hearts sank upon reading the article. I wonder how they will try to deflect from it?

I'd imagine that a fair few TRAs are trying to deflect from it without having actually read it.

Being critical of gender identity ideology is not confined to feminists.

Lots of people might not be particularly interested in the transgender issue from a feminist perspective, but they do care about things like free speech, people being harassed and fired for voicing disagreement, schools promoting ideological propaganda and young people being swayed into making irreversible decisions, science denialism and shutting down of any critical research into the area of transgenderism, secret lobbying without adequate political scrutiny, women's sports being affected, their daughters or elderly female relatives not having access to single sex services or same sex staff etc.

You don't need to be a feminist, nor be involved in feminist theory and analysis to find the growing extremism of trans ideology deeply worrying.

The more that people speak out about their thoughts and concerns and experiences, the better - parents, teachers, scientists, medical practitioners, politicians, civil servants, right-wing voters, left-wing voters, transsexuals, LGB activists, detransitioners, and so on.
Everyone is coming from different angles and viewpoints and it is vital that the snowball effect keeps going. There will be some overlap with feminism, and disagreements in other aspects. That's ok. This isn't some minor spat between different factions in feminism as I once used to think. This is a deeply regressive and authoritarian ideology that has serious ramifications on our society.

I don't know much about Debbie Hayton, but the article seemed balanced and insightful. It is a useful resource for those who aren't familiar with AGP or think feminists are mistaken for discussing it because it is 'unrepresentative of the trans community'.
It is quite possible that Debbie's own opinions and self-awareness has evolved over time and it must have been difficult to be open about something like AGP.

Their voice adds to the discussion and the harassment they have endured due to being public about their opinions shows how even trans people are not safe from the gender extremists.

I wonder if it's because Debbie is off-brand and is therefore undermining the cause that Debbie is being encouraged to detransition?

Or is it because of that popular (and convenient) misconception that doctors won't allow AGPs to transition? It's just as true trans as HSTS, in the sense that AGP type behaviour doesn't prevent them from getting a GD diagnosis, although originally the 2 year waiting period was intended to exclude them to some extent.

Hacsi Horvath has posted some interesting excerpts from older literature. One describes a patient's request for gender reassignment as a hostile gesture towards the wife - which would have sounded ridiculous to me until I read about transwidows' experiences.

mobile.twitter.com/givethemseeds/status/1218279906573873152

mobile.twitter.com/givethemseeds/status/1218268729089257472

that’s a decent article. i take issue with one or two bits of it, but overall seems sensible and balanced.

I can imagine that the backlash will be quite severe. But I think the party line from trans activism will be as snowblight has so helpfully laid out the bare bones of: Debbie is No True Trans, and should immediately be purged and cancelled from both sides of the debate before anyone else gets infected by the contagious ideas.

Of course, the rule of trans activism is that you can’t tell anyone what their gender identity is because ACCEPTANCE WITHOUT EXCEPTION but...um...oh dear, this is awkward.

It is quite possible that Debbie's own opinions and self-awareness has evolved over time

If so, it's at least partly down to the pushback from women. When he was first challenged about his use of women's spaces, he said he found it amusing.

The ‘born in the wrong body’ narrative underpins the whole gender ideology and is very damaging implying that sex stereotypes are innate, and providing a reason to transition children. Challenging this theory of gender dysphoria with other robust narratives is a good thing in my opinion.

When I first came across Debbie I have to admit I held her up as the acceptable face of a trans woman. However, I have gradually come to see Debbie's apparent willingness to continually place himself in the public eye by being active on Twitter, various articles, shifting of position, etc. as being part of his need for constant validation. I no longer view these as simply attempts to explain the reasoning behind his presentation as a woman but feel as if I have been somehow "used" and complicit in his delusion. Debbie really should be seeking professional therapy to sort herself out. From personal experience, this does help.

However, I have gradually come to see Debbie's apparent willingness to continually place himself in the public eye by being active on Twitter, various articles, shifting of position, etc. as being part of his need for constant validation.

I wonder how much, putting aside any theories about being trans, there is also ego at work here? I get the impression Debbie enjoys the media attention, the big following on Twitter etc. I remember them once coming on here and saying they could help as they were an 'intellectual' which seemed a slightly arrogant thing to say.

If so, it's at least partly down to the pushback from women. When he was first challenged about his use of women's spaces, he said he found it amusing.

That does not surprise me. I've seen other posters with similar arrogant attitudes of 'you can't stop us from using women's spaces' in response to women's concerns.

I wonder if Debbie has or will ever acknowledge the role of women's pushback in their change of views....

I think this was an interesting and useful article.
I think suppositions that writing an article like this is about getting a sexual thrill are highly speculative.

In my experience trying to talk with people about AGP often falls flat because they can't quite get their heads around how it works. They can't imagine themselves thinking or feeling that way, or in any way that seems similar, so they tend to dismiss it as made up. So I think it's extremely useful to have someone try and describe what it's like or even just say they experience it.

My sense from the article was that Debbie was not describing presenting as a woman in an everyday way as directly a sexual thrill. More that one of the wider effects of the paraphilia was a strong sense of discomfort or disassociation with a male body on a daily basis. I imagine this as a sense of duality or disassociation from self, but that is very much my own thought and might not be accurate. and the transitioning was meant to alleviate that aspect rather than be a sexual act in a direct way.

I do wonder if that would actually be the best way to treat the problem, as it seems to have so many downsides, including that I would think that it would further tend to increase the paraphilia and accompanying sense of disassociation. Trying to lesson both seems like a better option to me, strengthening the sense of self as male or unified - I'm not sure how that would look, but I would like to see that sort of approach as the first one and also attempts to try and make it more effective.

On the other hand it may simply be that in some cases, for whatever reason these paraphilias develop and they are resistant to treatment, and people have to make do with less than ideal solutions. Which unfortunately included their families. In such cases though I think it would be much better for the individuals and their spouses if they could honestly acknowledge the nature of the problem, rather than being told their spouse is really a woman and they should be happy that they are now fulfilled.

lessen both, even

What I find so difficult about this is that I want to read in good faith and believe that someone is telling the truth.

Unfortunately, my experience in this area has taught me that I can never taken anything at face value.

I find that deeply depressing and one of the worst consequences of this whole ideology.

I think Debbie has been on a bit of a journey with this (their identity and how it relates to, and impacts, women) and has actually come a long way since 2 years or so ago (so I don't hold it against him that he laughingly dismissed his use of female loos).

The interview he did with Benjamin Boyce a few days ago was very honest, and I'd say critical of their own identity and the ways it is damaging. It's worth a listen.

I appreciate Debbie's voice in this, and his support of women challenging it. I also appreciate him speaking up about the AGP and complexities of that as it does take a certain amount of bravery.

It's been a while since I was here, but I want ed to know what people thought about that piece so I came looking.

My position has moved massively in four years. In early 2016 I still thought I was some sort of woman and I got very upset when challenged because I couldn't defend my claims without resorting to gobbledegook.

I won't repeat my latest piece on this thread but just wanted to say thanks for the criticism - positive and negative - I do listen carefully to what is said in response to my pieces.

Just to reassure the powers that be here that I don't care about pronouns ... unless they are dehumanising pronouns (it / its) as have been used elsewhere.

I'll definitely take the time to watch the Benjamin Boyce video.

I think suppositions that writing an article like this is about getting a sexual thrill are highly speculative.

And does it matter, in the end? People need to know about AGP. Not enough people are willing to talk about it, for very valid reasons. It is brave to step up and say "I am an autogynephile" - we already know how much TRAs like to paint their opponents as perverts (when they're not painting them as prudes) so goodness know what kind of attacks DH may be targeted with after this admission. Especially when we all know that any mention of autogynephilia triggers huge amounts of rage from the usual suspects.

Who has completely pure motives? Who isn't driven by ego, to some extent? I am damn sure I wouldn't stand up to the same amount of scrutiny DH is getting. I think Debbie is being brave, and doing good.

Purist arguments aren't going to turn this juggernaut around. And if it happens, it is going to have to happen in stages. The Overton window shifts a pane at a time. Debbie is helping that shift, whatever his personal motives.

We are in a bizarre situation where the average person, if they had a scooby about what is going on, would not sign up to it. But that has not stopped Stonewall et getting a huge head start. They are better funded. They are streets ahead of us.

And in truth, the women I meet who would be dead against Karen Whites and Veronica Ivys would still support those like Debbie because the born in the wrong body narrative has gained hold and elicits much sympathy.

So although I'm a purist at heart, I'm a pragmatist when it comes down to it and Debbie's contribution is valuable. The end will justify the means.

Lauding transsexuals and autogynephiles in feminist spaces directly harms trans widows by excluding them from said space- spaces that were set up to support women. Imagine needing the help of other women but being unable to avail yourself of it because your husband had got there first?

There is no such thing as true trans and AGP is neither victimless nor should it be destigmatised.

Debbie is continually trying to push himself on feminists and into feminist arguments and forum, taking away wens voices. First and foremost his wife's voice who is a tranwidow and the first and most important victim in Debbie's fetish.

Please don't give him fodder for his fetish as that all he's here for

There is considerable writing in this area by other autogynephilic males in a professional capacity:

www.annelawrence.com/autogynephilia.html

And still interesting to see how much hassle it still gets from the obvious suspects. The TRAs really don't like the idea that autogynephilia even exists. Nope, all out-dated, old-fashioned, nothing to see here, it doesn't even exist..............

Yeah, not everyone has a problem with men posting here. There need to be places to have robust discussions too, on all kinds of topics. Not all discussions are meant to be support groups, nor should they be.

SomeDyke

I don't find TRAs wanting to deny this stuff so odd, really. But I do find it really odd that some people in the psychiatric world, who are dealing with gender issues, seem to deny that it is a thing. I used to be friendly with a lady's whose son, age 18, was struggling seriously with what looked to be like AGP though he claimed (at the time, not now) to be trans. Not that I know for sure that's what it was, but everything seemed to point that way, that it was what would have been called a transvestite.

She took him to any number of psychiatrists, and none of them suggested that as a possibility. In fact she'd never heard about it. Similarly with a gender specialist that I know socially, she claims it's basically made up.

It just seems odd to me.

Lauding transsexuals and autogynephiles in feminist spaces directly harms trans widows by excluding them from said space- spaces that were set up to support women. Imagine needing the help of other women but being unable to avail yourself of it because your husband had got there first?

I am much more concerned about these women being isolated than I am about where an AGP male is in their cycle.