Impressive new article by Debbie Hayton.

[Umyeahnah]

I've not been Debbie's biggest fan, but this is changing my view. Thankyou Debbie for owning your autogynaphilia, and writing about it .

The irony is I'm not sure guidelines allow me to use that word?

quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

Are there really a significant number of people who would not see a glaring problem. with a self confessed autogynephile, in women's clothes, teaching children? Telling them to call them Miss and using (certainly until lately) facilities for females?

Has Hayton denounced the NASUWT policy he helped to write? The one that recommends self id for teachers?
It's policies like the NASUWT guidance that have led to this situation where women like Maya Frostater lose their jobs for saying that sex is immutable. In a saner world, male teachers who demand to be called 'Miss' would be disciplined and/or referred to therapy.

Debbie hasn't been on MN for some time as far as I've noticed but you could argue it was hypocritical of members to tolerate them here for so long. If one of the trans partners/ex-partners of a 'trans widow' appeared I'm sure they would be given short shrift, yet Debbie has been tolerated, and even welcomed, despite their wife's obvious discomfort, because they write a few articles that are useful to the GC cause.

Yes, snowblight. The doctors treating Debbie should have exercised more caution and investigated the possibility of AGP before any hormones or surgery were recommended

People being unhappy and wanting to detransition - often after irreversable surgery or harm to the body - is the risk that occurs when affirmation only approach is adopted.

And sex (a real biological fact, as Debbie eloquently discusses) and gender (how you feel inside / your personality) are conflated in policy and practice.

And people chant ridiculous things that don't make any sense like TWAW.

And parents aren't allowed to discuss treatments that might harm their children because they're labelled bigots if they do.

However, although I agree the number of detransitioners will likely skyrocket in the future, Debbie quite explicitly states in the article that transitioning has helped him. Debbie seems to be quite intelligent and his ability to self ID as a transwoman should be the same as anyone else surely? It's very rude and I believe breaks talk guidelines to make such comments about Debbie snowblight

It's very rude and I believe breaks talk guidelines to make such comments about Debbie snowblight

I see nothing rude in being concerned about someone's welfare.

Dr Hayton has received a lot of criticism on here for exactly the issues you describe snowblight.

Before seeing the TV documentary which included an interview with Mrs Hayton, I imagine that a lot of people on here were unaware, as I was, that Dr Hayton was married.

That's called not everyone on MN being the same person, snow.
Some were/are very keen on Debbie, others less so.

It's been pointed out thousands of times that FWR is made up of many many different women with different views, and this has been particularly borne out by the varying reactions to Debbie on here. The idea that there's one FWR poster who's in charge of "welcoming" or "tolerating" people or viewpoints is absurd.

Blimey, though, this article. I fervently wish more trans people could articulate honestly their feelings and thought processes - not so anyone can "gotcha" them but so we can understand some part of their identity. "Twaw get over it" and "no debate" simply do not help.

That's called not everyone on MN being the same person, snow.
Some were/are very keen on Debbie, others less so.

I'm sure there were plenty hypocritically biting their tongues, knowing the unhappiness of Hayton's wife, purely because he was useful to their cause.

I'd rather not discuss what snowblight imagines (yet again), but what Debbie has written. Anyone else with me?

It must be lovely having psychic powers.

"Twaw get over it" and "no debate" simply do not help.

Does this help, though? I mean, given that Stonewall long since committed to including crossdressers under the trans umbrella and M&S seems to see them as an essential market segment I guess I'm just not convinced that it's going to make any difference to those who've chosen the "be inclusive at any cost" path.

I see nothing rude in being concerned about someone's welfare

Well suggesting someone who's explicitly said they don't want to detransition should detransition isn't exactly affirmation without exception is it?

As for being concerned about welfare - that's what so many different women with different viewpoints have been saying and is why we were all so upset when Lang was banned for caring about the welfare of kids.

Lol at Snowblight "misgendering" DH. They know well what sex a person is. Haha.

Well yes, in that it helps me understand what some people may mean by identifying as a trans woman. I still think your average person has no real idea what it means other than some notion of being born in the wrong body etc

Fascinating and I think it's huge that Debbie has calmly and clearly set out that agp is real.

I received a pm from a friend last year when I shared someone else's post saying why mixed sex loos were a bad thing. She demanded to know where I was getting my information ... as agp was a myth. I wish I'd had this to share then.

Yes, I'm concerned for Mrs H, and concerned about the children instructed to participate in the fantasy.

But the fact that a scientist and writer is promoting this conversation from lived experience is a great step.

I wonder if Debbie would be happier if they just detransitioned?

It's not 'just detransition', though snowblight is it? We are talking about life changing surgery, possible job loss, poor mental health and the wider effect on family. Detransition won't press some sort of reset button.

Anyway. I think that Debbie and others like h** have an important voice in this discussion. I don't consent to unwitting participation in a person's paraphilia and would far rather that they were upfront about it.

I wonder if it's because Debbie is off-brand and is therefore undermining the cause that Debbie is being encouraged to detransition?

Detransition won't press some sort of reset button.

Also, people aren't starfish - once bits have been surgically removed they don't grow back. Which is rather a good argument in favor of much greater gatekeeping.

Lol at Snowblight "misgendering" DH. They know well what sex a person is. Haha.grin

I'm happy to be polite to Debbie just as I would to Miranda in terms of pronouns. Debbie says they're male and has said they're not overly fussed which pronouns are used so I'll use the ones which seem to match their thoughts on themself.

YY Kittens. The lack of appropriate gatekeeping is absolutely scandalous.

snow I'm so impressed that you've understood the issue for transwidows, really pleased to see you understand the impact on those women. Nice one.

Whatever my views, I certainly wouldn't give someone a free pass just because they're useful to a certain cause - as plenty of people have done here with Debbie.

I don't know whether talking about a 'free pass' is accurate. It's possible to welcome honest input from people like Debbie whilst at the same time being concerned about what AGP means for safeguarding, medical gatekeeping, the law and so on.

I'd imagine that a fair few TRAs hearts sank upon reading the article. I wonder how they will try to deflect from it?