Impressive new article by Debbie Hayton.

[Umyeahnah]

I've not been Debbie's biggest fan, but this is changing my view. Thankyou Debbie for owning your autogynaphilia, and writing about it .

The irony is I'm not sure guidelines allow me to use that word?

quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

Oh now stop it! Hiding your face is something you’d play with an 18 month old, not a child of 7 I fear I did not type / you did not read that as clearly as was intended...

I was talking about the ages between 2is and 7 ish: from hiding your head = invisible to having a good idea of your self as an individual! The journey from solipsism to individualism!

Slightly off topic from Debbie, but the last few posts reminded me of last week, when I chose a blue tee shirt and jeans for my 3 year old GD to wear to nursery. She declared that these were boys' clothes. She wore them without a problem, but I am still left wondering where or when she decided clothes are gendered. Certainly not from her parents or me. Surely the school can't be reinforcing gender stereotypes? Thinking aloud I suppose it is other children and their parents.

She declared that these were boys' clothes. She wore them without a problem, but I am still left wondering where or when she decided clothes are gendered. Certainly not from her parents or me.

TV, media, books, children's clothing sections in shops, adults & children outside the immediate family & yes many nurseries schools reinforce gender stereotypes.

This idea of a 'gender identity' which might be the opposite sex only makes sense if you assume that personalities or self image are somehow connected to one's sex.

This seems a bit confused to me, but I think it's the way it's written - do you mean that a gender identity that seems to be opposite to the person's real sex only makes sense if it isn't connected to the person's sex?

I actually think identity is something that largely is formed over time. It's an innate capacity but also flexible in many ways, which is why people can form identity around things like political parties - obviously we don't have an innate connection to the Labour party or whatever. I also think this is part of the reason teenagers, who are in a period where cultural identity is being formed in a very intense way, are so vulnerable to being told untruths about gender identity. Young kids also do some development around identity and sex too, and because of their development it can go through some odd stages.

But I was responding to a very specific point, criticising Debbie for saying that as a child the sense of gender identity he experienced seemed to be attached to "girl". I don't think that's odd, because I had a similar experience for a time, and because I know it's not unusual for kids to do those things. So I think it's really quite strange that people are criticising that comment by posting stuff about kids developmental understanding.

Is that experience Debbie had connected to later issues around identity and sex and gender? Clearly Debbie thought so at the time of the interview. It's possible I think, but it also might be unconnected. And even if it is, I suspect it would be difficult to say how i is connected in a clear way.

I looks to me like criticising that particular small comment about someone's feelings as a kid was being used as a stick to beat them with rather than anything more productive. We should be making it clear that ideas like that which kids have don't say they were born in the wrong body, or necessarily indicate ongoing issues, but that doesn't require saying they don't happen.

I'm glad you posted this, op. We need to have these discussions about the so-called allies.

From the article

The subordination of science to myth was exemplified in the recent British case of Maya Forstater, who’d lost her job after pointing out the plain truth that transgender people like me cannot change our biological sex by proclamation. “I conclude from…the totality of the evidence, that [Forstater] is absolutist in her view of sex and it is a core component of her belief that she will refer to a person by the sex she considered appropriate,” concluded Judge James Tayler at her employment tribunal. “The approach is not worthy of respect in a democratic society.”

I’m not sure where that leaves me, a British transgender person who agrees with Forstater.

Cases like Maya's are the direct result of institutional capture - policies such as the NASUWT guidance, which have been developed and pushed through by seemingly reasonable 'old school' transsexuals like Debbie Hayton. The loonies on Twitter are just the cheerleaders.

Thinking aloud I suppose it is other children and their parents.

Probably the other kids who are slightly older. Around age 4-6 a lot of them have very concrete ideas about markers for boys and girls. It's part of how they solidify their sense of male and female, it starts to pass usually after about age 6 (granted that kids develop at different rates at that age.)

Cases like Maya's are the direct result of institutional capture - policies such as the NASUWT guidance, which have been developed and pushed through by seemingly reasonable 'old school' transsexuals like Debbie Hayton.

The behind the scenes lobbying by trans rights activists has been going on for a very long time. The lack of care for Women's rights & Safeguarding is apparent thoughout.

Last year AngryAttackKittens wrote,
"I'm going to point every "but the nice, harmless old school transsexuals whose movement has been unfairly appropriated by the nasty transgender people" person to this thread from now on.

All the same elements we're seeing now were there in that old BBC roundtable from the 70s with the 4 transwomen, the politician, and the doctor. None of this is new."
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007
its an important thread

This seems a bit confused to me, but I think it's the way it's written - do you mean that a gender identity that seems to be opposite to the person's real sex only makes sense if it isn't connected to the person's sex?

I'm not really sure what you mean here, but I think my meaning might have been clearer if I had said simply 'identity' instead of 'gender identity' (because try as I might, I cannot comprehend what a 'gender identity' is).

So what I was trying to say is that this idea of an identity which is that of the opposite sex only makes sense if you assume that personalities or self image are somehow connected to one's sex. Sex is a biological fact which can't be changed, so your identity or personality is constructed around this immutable fact, but should not be in any way restricted by it. Is that any clearer?

I also think this is part of the reason teenagers, who are in a period where cultural identity is being formed in a very intense way, are so vulnerable to being told untruths about gender identity.

I agree with this, and it's why people have sometimes commented that 'gender identity' is 'the new goth'. With teenagers there's a lot of trying to fit in going on as well, so for those who don't, an opposite sex 'gender identity' or identifying as 'non binary' gives them a way of belonging, or an explanation of their failure to fit in.

But I was responding to a very specific point, criticising Debbie for saying that as a child the sense of gender identity he experienced seemed to be attached to "girl".

This is where I get lost. It's that idea of a 'gender identity' again. Why is 'gender' attached to identity? There are people of both sexes and there are personalities. Why should any particular personality belong to a particular sex. I really don't get it at all.

I looks to me like criticising that particular small comment about someone's feelings as a kid was being used as a stick to beat them with rather than anything more productive.

I think this might be because Hayton has admitted to being AGP. This is a paraphilia which develops in adulthood, but many AGPs create a back story which involves them wanting to be/thinking they were a girl when they were children. It didn't necessarily happen.

Dr Hayton has been influential in shaping school policies (NASUWT) & as a teacher has direct & indirect influence on children.

Last week there were reports of a hate crime conviction being secured against a teenager who asked/demanded if PCSO Freer was 'a boy or a girl'. PCSO Freer, like Dr Hayton & many other trans rights activists has considerable opportunity to share their narrative & influence public policy.
(extract)
"In a victim impact statement the officer told how he worked closely with North Wales Police diversity unit, victim support and other agencies to raise awareness of hate crime and the need to report it.

He provided talks to children's and youth groups in Flintshire and Wrexham to raise transgender and LGBT issues and lectured at Glyndwr University" (continues)
www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/transgender-pcso-subjected-transphobic-abuse-17651776

PCSO Freer believes:
'I was born female but from my earliest memories and before I could even talk I knew I was a boy in the wrong body.

'I told my parents when I was a small child that I was a boy. However, I was brought up as a girl and began to transition to male when I was around 15."
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7943147/Teenage-yob-ordered-pay-compensation-transgender-police-officer-abuse.html