I Believe Her

[Brittany2019]

This is disappointing :

[Qu1tter]

Disingenuous bullshit. You are not on the side of women if you minimise their concerns and allow misogynistic attacks on your page.

[SonicVersusGynaephobia]

Frothy: If you all want your trans-exclusionary spaces on the internet, go and make them

Oh, the irony! I'd laugh, but, yunno.

Unbelievable irony. You have taken a campaign that was for women, by women. Any female person, actually, as that is what radical feminism is for. So it was already "trans inclusive" of all female people and their specific needs. You have taken that, and (maybe because of your own weakness in being led by your "Terfs are garbage" friend) made it something else, something which doesn't work for female people anymore.

Then you lecture us and tell us to go and do the work ourselves? All the work and effort that you have just, in one fell-swoop, taken from women and given to males?

Fucking irony is right.

[FadingStar]

Well said Sonic. It's wicked.

[CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost]

Just to get this cleared up, this page now excludes Transmen?

[CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost]

So it's gone from trans inclusive to mixed sex, apart from transwomen?

[CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost]

or rather trans men, women who feel they are men are now excluded, is this right?

[Putyourdamnshoeson]

Has the post been pulled?

[OhHolyJesus]

Sonic has it. The post has been pulled and the profile banner has been updated.

Comments on gender (women rape too) remain on the post which has the percentages.

[FrothyDragon]

Yes the post has been pulled, no the banner hasn't been changed. Or anything else on the page.

[JoxerGoesToStuttgart]

Or anything else on the page.

Except who it’s for and who is allowed to post.

[zebrasdontwearbras]

Jeez Frothy - this is the page set up to support Ched Evans's victim?

I followed that page since you set it up - and was very active in the threads here at the time.

And now you're allowing people to say "Fuck off terfs" to women on your page? But deleting actual reports, from women's refuge workers, and social workers, of the harm transactivism is doing to women's services.

I'm shocked at this.

[OhHolyJesus]

The name remains the same though.

I'm interested Frothy, how many people who think they are the opposite sex come to you or your page for support, compared to say women who know they are women?

I saw a comment from an 'enbie' (NB=non binary = 'enbie') who is a rape victim, this person was supporting your inclusivity but how many comments from women have been removed?

Will you be telling newcomers what your stance is, since the post has been removed now, so they are clear before they join or ask for support from your followers, just so they know where they stand?

[zebrasdontwearbras]

I just couldn't be more pissed off at how the trans movement has split feminism, and put women at loggerheads against each other.

The mens rights activists couldn't have planned this better.

[OhHolyJesus]

I feel so gutted that the woman who was raped by Ched Evans has been through all that, the crime, the trial, all the abuse and that page was set up and for me it was some kind of tribute to her suffering and recognising her and what she has been through, and now all that means nothing.

You took it upon yourself Frothy to do this, you could have resisted pressure and just stood by her, but you didn't.

[JoxerGoesToStuttgart]

@FrothyDragon how can you justify posting those percentage stats with the comment “women are rapists too” on your page that was established to show support for women who have been raped? How can women realistically come to that page for support after rape and post knowing that you will support anyone who posts “yeah but women rape too” when they post about their experience? They can’t. Women can no longer discuss their own rape on your page because you will allow people to post “women rape too” on their post. You’re excluding women rape victims from your page. That was set up specifically to support women rape victims.

[BertsFriend]

So 'I believe her...unless she claims that males in female only spaces is traumatising. Then I don't believe her.' That is truly shocking.

And yes to trans women fundraising and campaigning for their own services instead of hijacking women's services that women have fought bloody hard for.

[Ineedacupofteadesperately]

I was originally a radical feminist, but I cannot stand by and watch transwomen be excluded from vital services.

Including transwomen in what were female only vital services EXCLUDES many more women than there are transwomen. Women and girls simply won't feel safe to access those services. What you are doing is EXCLUSIONARY of a very large number of women and girls.

I guess as you say it's your page - but you need to be clear if you include XY you exclude very large numbers of female rape survivors. And it's a pretty shitty thing not to make this crystal clear to those rape survivors.

What would be more inclusive of everyone would be to have specialist trans services set up. Of course, the more extreme TRAs (not all trans of course) simply don't want this because they don't want their own vital services what they do want is to retraumatise, abuse, coerce and exclude women.

What Bert said is spot on - what you are saying by this statement is:
I believe her...unless she claims that males in female only spaces is traumatising. Then I don't believe her

[donquixotedelamancha]

how can you justify posting those percentage stats with the comment “women are rapists too” on your page that was established to show support for women who have been raped?

I've only seen the screenshot, but is the point of the stats not to argue with the 'women rape' comment by making clear that a vast majority of sexual assaults are by men?

[2BthatUnnoticed]

It sounds like the “I believe her” movement started on MN, grew in momentum, but then Frothy actually started the page - is that right? (Before my time)

I respect that Frothy can admin the page as she wants. It must be hard work so - I respect and appreciate that (thanks Frothy)

But “I believe her” belongs to all involved on the campaign, no? Many whom are now blocked from the page??

Why doesn’t:

• Frothy change to “I believe them” (avoid misgendering anyone)
  
• Someone start a new “I believe her” which is a female space

[2BthatUnnoticed]

But in the UK women are not rapists

Rape = using a penis (under UK law)

[JoxerGoesToStuttgart]

I've only seen the screenshot, but is the point of the stats not to argue with the 'women rape' comment by making clear that a vast majority of sexual assaults are by men?

If frothy was deleting all the “but women are rapists” comments under the post I would think so. But she isn’t so I can only assume she posted it to remind all the women who follow her page that they can’t expect to discuss their rape on her page without being reminded that women rape too and it being allowed to stand.

[Ineedacupofteadesperately]

I understand also Frothy if you're scared of the TRAs. Hell, I am too. They're bigger and meaner than me and don't worry about using threats to children as a way to intimidate women (see the threats to the children of Posie Parker and Caroline Farrow). But fudging the issue won't work.

If you're scared to operate a female (XX) only page then I think probably it's better to hand over to someone who has the courage of their convictions.

You could set up a trans-specific service 'I Believe Them'

[Ineedacupofteadesperately]

Cross post with 2B!

[DrinkFeckArseGirls]

Maybe the page should be called “I Believe Them”.

[donquixotedelamancha]

But in the UK women are not rapists

Good point- have just looked again properly at the wording of those stats.

How can anything less than 100% of perpetrators be male? Where would bonkers stats like that even come from?