I Believe Her

[Brittany2019]

This is disappointing :

Only certain kinds of rape seemingly. If perpetrated by a trans person then the victim can just FRO

So you're not a women's support group, then.

Thanks for making that clear.

No idea what this about, but safeguarding has certain principles and effectively a 'threshold of risk'.

This is clearly a concept that the person who wrote the message attached does not understand.

It's about identifying the most vulnerable in certain situations and what makes them vulnerable and working from that basis, rather than the basis of being nice to everyone.

That's the bottom line. Not everyone is nice. Not nice people seek loopholes and weaknesses in situations for their own advantage.

To that ends that's what extreme end of the trans right movement has actively supported unfortunately. Sometimes innocently but also sometimes very open in its attempt to subordinate and coerce and to blur boundaries around consent.

That's the trouble with unintented consequences and when people fail to under the principles of safeguarding.

The idea that this is something that could ever be black and white like the message suggests is naive in the extreme.

@CarolDanvers Posie was there before you were posting. Again, I was not there for the debate, I had expressly stated I was not accepting the debate on that page, and thus was not accepting comments aiming to engage in that debate.

Again, to all of you. When you run the page, feel free to run it how it is. But until then, good grief. Fucking give me a break.

PS actually bother to read the law on coercive control and the proposed law on domestic abuse especially the definition of emotional abuse.

Then read the trans widow threads.

Then come back and explain that message to me again.

If your page doesn't care exclusively for women-adult human females-then change the name of the group to something that actually reflects that. Surely it's not a good example of inclusive language?!

without causing PTSD for survivors of male violence

And you need to examine how gender critical survivors of male violence will feel when they click on your page and are assailed by “fuck off t*”. Please, please delete those kind of messages, for at least a few days, for the sake of women already following you who didn’t have advance warning that your stance was going to change to allow those kind of extreme slurs (so bad they’re neither allowed on here nor Twitter).

And the whole "no debate" tripe no longer washes, I'm afraid. Women should be able to debate these things without being silenced which is exactly what you did.

In Frothy's defence, it is her page and she can admin it however she wants...

However, differing views lead to healthy debate and centring men on a page designed to help and advocate for rape victims is pretty shit.

Give you a break? His about you give the women who trusted you a break? You've shat on victims from a great height. But you've got squeaky clean ethics!

You're ethics are fucked.

Pose wasn’t there when I was posting. Why did you delete the FOVAS report? And why did you not only delete reasonable posters but bann them? I’m now banned from a page I supported since its inception. I’m glad you support the concept of female only safe spaces (as that us the only thing that will help my friend). Perhaps you need to state that clearly (and cope with the pile on an vitriol that will bring to your door). the conversation could have been around that. How do we prioritise women without excluding TW who need help. Has that person shouting TERF all over the place gone yet? Are they banned?

Oh well, woke points more important that women.

Except we are not supporting people like your friend's STBXH.

My friend’s STBXH has posted about all sorts of assaults online, and admitted to her they are “fantasies”. Her STBXH likes finding women’s spaces that offer acceptance - especially as this means she cannot then continue using them. I’ve had direct experience of this as her STBXH tried to befriend me so she would lose my support.

From what I read in the transwidow thread this is unfortunately not a unique situation. Have you read them?

Our aim is to support survivors of rape, who are overwhelmingly women, but without excluding survivors of rape who fall outside of the category of woman.
Then you need to rebrand. Right now you are “I believe HER”. Please don’t pull in vulnerable women under false pretences.

@SanFranBear I feel it's unfair to suggest I've centred the page on men. This is one status. One fucking status. Come on.

This was not the place for debate, and I was not happy to continue the debate there. I had said this from the outset. If I were to share a post about a transwoman offender, then by all means, discuss it there. If I had shared a post about men posing as women to commit sexual offences, discuss it there. This post was clarifying my stance after another post got hijacked.

GColdtimer, when and where I state it, it will be when I feel ready and clear enough with my thoughts to do so. As for the person who used "TERF", I have deleted her comments, but have not banned her. I know her personally, and it's a topic extremely close to her heart.

Again, I stand by my decision, and whilst some people may have been banned in haste, I would have appreciated it if my wishes had been respected. I laid down my boundaries, and with good reason.

The page title is a lie. What more is there to say about your ethics?

So you tolerate abusive name calling because it’s close to their heart but not reasoned debate. Give me a break. This is pretty close to all our hearts. The fact you are supportive of someone who will use hate speech against women in this way yet ban someone who shared the FOVAS report is utterly beyond me.

Christ ive just had a look. Some of the bullshit that people post just to see their own words on a screen. Men have periods apparently 😂 how the fuck can anyone look themselves in the mirror after pandering to this shit.

I get that emotions run high when you feel like something you’ve invested in is coming under attack, but this has been so badly handled.

There’s a wealth of difference between politely voicing genuine concerns over self id, and actual transphobia. You know that yourself, don’t act as though it was ethics that led you to censor those comments rather than total and utter cowardice.

It's not ethical to place males above females, it's appeasement.

It will lift you in the popularity stakes though. Because under patriarchy you have to put males first and you will receive tiny rewards for doing it, like temporary popularity. Not a rape free world however, which is what women and girls really need and want.

Rape is a male crime, committed against the female body. It requires a penis. Something that most MTF trans keep. How you can justify what you're doing to yourself in your head, would be very interesting to hear.

This was not the place for debate, and I was not happy to continue the debate there.

And yet you've let one side of the debate flourish and ruthlessly shut the other down. Surely a post with no comments would have been a better way to clarify your aims for your page? People would have just left knowing it wasn't a space they wanted to associate with any longer. You've picked a side so I don't why you don't just admit that instead of pleading to be given a break and pretending your intention was so well meaning.

This is getting ridiculous!
Can someone please explain to me how the hell a trans women can have a period without bleeding just through hormones?!
Am I being pranked? Do these people really believe the BS that they type?

As someone on week 7 of a period with blood coming from my vagina they can piss off.

I was originally a radical feminist, but I cannot stand by and watch transwomen be excluded from vital services.

MTF trans can create their own services. The way women did. Why don't you help them do that, instead of supporting them transgressing female boundaries?

I Believe Her originated on Mumsnet, arising from many, many discussions here about male (note male) sexual violence towards women and girls. You might own the webpage but the politics of believing and listening to women and girls about men's sexual violence towards us are and always have been, radical feminist. Turning it into lib fem lite goes against everything that gave rise to the campaign in the first place.

Call it "I believe her/him/they" instead.

As for the person who used "TERF", I have deleted her comments, but have not banned her. I know her personally, and it's a topic extremely close to her heart.

You protect your mates first not the women you claim to support.

Nope. You can't do that if you are trying to do the best for vulnerable women. You just made them collateral damage because they aren't really important to you. They are disposable when it comes down to it and they are secondary to your personal feelings.

You've just admitted that making sure you don't fall out with your mate is more important to you than those women.

That says everything anyone needs to know about your priorities.

If you stand to support vulnerable women at a vulnerable time you don't tolerate that shit. You protect women from that. You don't have special cases where they don't come first cos your pally with them.

Safeguarding rule 1. Failure to understand this is where massive scandals have frequently arisen.

You've just left things open so that person if they get upset again can do the same harm. They have had special treatment and have a different set of standard of conduct to adhere to to everyone else. If they do, do it again you've actively enabled them to, knowing that it's a risk.

Reflect on that.

MTF trans can create their own services. The way women did. Why don't you help them do that, instead of supporting them transgressing female boundaries?

This is what I always say!! Men always bitch and moan about the services they aren't allowed in.
Why aren't there men's refuges? Why isn't there men's aid?
Well why don't you do what women had to do and buckle down and fight tooth and damn nail for it. Through blood sweat and government funding cuts.

But no it's much easier to throw a tantrum and do what always has been done and take away from women.