I Believe Her

[Brittany2019]

This is disappointing :

I can't find it now but Frothy has stated in a comment on the page that the page was set up in relation to a specific case and that it will always be called "I believe her".

I’m really astounded that trans lobby is not campaigning for trams specific services such as shelters and rape survivors support. Is the want for validation greater than need for specifically tailored support services?

Bloody hell. Frothy this is insane. Your actions are speaking much louder than your words here.

"I was originally a radical feminist"

You mean you 'identified' as one.
Whether you actually were one can be answered in the same way as the question "are people with penises actually female?"

If you had wanted to be trans inclusive you could have made the point that women who identify as trans-men are raped, by men, and entitled to the same principles as any other women.

But no. You've made your focus 'people who identify as female' whether they are male or not. And in doing so, you've excluded the thousands of young girls currently thinking they are boys, and the thousands of women who don't accept that their female existence and likelihood of being raped - or believed -lies in their invisible, purported identity.

Years ago, I was taught by a rad-fem and needed to write an essay about domestic violence. I was young, didn't exactly gel with my lecturer and she was, frankly, so radical that I didn't 'get it'. How could she be so furious about 50% of the population, as a group? I wrote my essay and titled it "Men are abused too." It was well researched, with good arguments, so I got a very good grade, but the narrative summary was blistering - my lecturer hated it. I didn't get it, really I didn't. 20 years on, I get it. I understand now, that focusing on a teeny tiny minority of DV and ignoring the overwhelming and shocking majority, was just insulting after weeks of (very good) tuition.

Some men are raped (by other men) and some men are sexually assaulted by females. But it's horrific that having a vagina puts that risk up so hugely, and worse, men know that at the end of the day, nobody will believe the woman anyway. I mean, we're all up for it, aren't we? Shouldn't we just be grateful?

Do you agree with your friend that terfs are garbage, Frothy?

For whatever reason, I don't think FrothyDragon will be able to hear us. Angry women equals wrong and bad, however good or right our arguments are.

So disappointed by these developments. What kind of person accuses feminists concerned about women being raped of being TERFs?

If you want to support transwomen, go ahead. But how dare you criticise women for supporting other women?

One of the things that we see over and over is women who are unable to unpack their conditioning sufficiently to actually center women in their activism.
I notice it in threads here fairly often. Over and over their comments center men or a specific man. We often assume they are trolling but I do not think they are. They genuinely view the man as the main character in every woman's life story, just as they have been trained to do.

I can kind of see her point that a page set up to support rape victims probably isn't the right place for debate or victim blaming.

To give an analogy, it's like going onto a page supporting victims of knife crime and lecturing a young traumatised stab victim about how it's his fellow black youths who are statistically most responsible for this crime. I think that's what she's getting at.

Did you read the actual post and subsequent comments Power? Because that's not remotely what happened.

It really isn't Powerflowerrr. Black people are oppressed in our racist society, under patriarchy whereas males aren't. In patriarchy males (people with penises) oppress females. They all benefit from that oppression however they identify. MTF trans are not women's "fellows" in this scenario.

Not wanting males in female only spaces that were created to heal from and resist male violence isn't victim blaming in the slightest. How did you draw the conclusion that it was?

PowerFlowerrr
That's a bad analogy.
But let's go along with it.
It's like going onto a page supporting victims of rape and lecturing a young traumatised rape victim about how it's her fellow women and men with penises who are statistically most responsible for this crime.
Men don't rape, penises do.
That's an anology of guns don't kill people, people do.

Did you read the actual post and subsequent commentsPower?

I don't really know the background but her post seemed to be saying that the focus should be on helping victims rather than judging, which she fears will drive them away.

She gave the example of people helping her son without mentioning male violence, which isn't dissimilar to helping a black youth without mentioning black violence/knife crime.

I just don't get why you'd need to bang on about the perpetrators on a site intended to help the victims. Isn't the whole point to create a non-triggering environment - pretty much the same reason why people usually argue against men being in rape hospices.

pretty much the same reason why people usually argue against men being in rape hospices.
I don't understand what you mean by this?
And "banging on" about not wanting penises in a womans rape survivor group called group called, "I believe her"
What's wrong with that?

She gave the example of people helping her son without mentioning male violence, which isn't dissimilar to helping a black youth without mentioning black violence/knife crime.

Why are you trying to stereotype knife violence as a black issue? Glasgow had a huge knife violence problem amongst young white males until they started treating it as a public health issue. It's racist of you to try and link knife crime with a particular ethnic group.

On the other hand rape is a male issue. Males rape across all classes, ethnicities, nationalities and identities and have done across time. Your analogy on the other hand is both wrong and racist. Males are the violent sex. It is not wrong to point this out or to use that knowledge to keep women and children safe.

Didn't she address though why the name had been kept? (can't be arsed to reread).

I respect people's views and oppose self ID, but if individual services choose to support transwomen that's their decision surely. The founder has probably helped a lot more women than most (all?) of the people here complaining.

GC feminists can be a bit overwhelming sometimes IMO, even if I do share some of their views. They often try and shoehorn their opinions into any place they can, regardless of the context, which may well be the case here as one of the follow up posts mentions posters coming out the woodwork who'd never previously engaged with the discussion.

Women and chidren need single-sex services and facilities, away from men, because of male violence against women.

It's racist of you to try and link knife crime with a particular ethnic group.

I can't even be bothered to dig up the stats but it's definitely overrepresented in black youths as is most violent crime - FFS black-on-black murder is the principle cause of death for young black males in some countries. It's no more racist to say that than it is transphobic to mention crime stats of TW.

Women and chidren need single-sex services and facilities, away from men, because of male violence against women.

Well, then I guess you'd better go and set them up then. You're wasting valuable time arguing with people who have decided to cater for several demographics (and are still helping more women than you are).

Anyway, I'm out. I've given my opinion and don't need to defend it to posters with clear agendas. I'm against self ID but have no issue with people extending services to TW.

PowerFlowerrr
if individual services choose to support transwomen that's their decision surely
The issue is that women's groups AND single sexed places are being forced to accept transwomen.Look at Vancover rape relief.
Think about lesbians not being able to say they are same sex attracted. There are many more examples. PowerFlowerrr it seems like you are coming from a place on the fence, but that you believe the mumsnet are TERFS rhetoric.
Can anyone else link some threads about women's places being forced to admit tw?
Jesus I wish ROwantrees was here..

Like many others I followed the page after the ulster rugby rape trial. I believe her

I can't condone following a page that supports men. This is about women who have been abused, assaulted and raped by men. Women need and demand spaces away from men.

You can't provide proof for your racist claims because it isn't there. I'm sure you "can't be bothered". We see you.

Radical feminists have helped more women than FrothyDragon ever has or will but she's happy to see us derided as terfs and shunned and excluded, including by her.

The Mumsnet campaign "We Believe You" came about because of radical feminist, women-centred discussions about male violence on Mumsnet. Frothy came in on the back of that, amending the slogan to "I Believe Her' to support the woman in the Ched Even's case which was a wonderful thing, but now she seems to be throwing rape victims under the bus in order to appease people who are male-sexed. It's sad.

"Women and chidren need single-sex services and facilities, away from men, because of male violence against women."

Well, then I guess you'd better go and set them up then.

Er...women DID set them up. Many years ago.

And now those services and facilities are being bullied and emotionally blackmailed into accepting males too, simply because they identify as women. They can even lose their public funding if they don't open their doors to transwomen.