I Believe Her

[Brittany2019]

This is disappointing :

Which is horrible, and no one here supports you getting death threats. Why are you bringing them up at this juncture, though? Because it looks a lot like an attempt to deflect the criticism you've had for this by manipulating women who are angry by making them feel bad for their anger when you have been so brave etc.

I think the previous advice was sensible. Hide the thread, walk away. I think I might take that advice myself, as I've seem so much fucking rape minimization via 'gender identity' today I think I'm going mad.

@Joxergoestostuttgart There have always been men on the page.

@BeMoreMagdalen What, so you want me to roll over so you can all carry on talking about me as if I'm not here? No. That's not fair.

@BeMoreMagdalen The reason I brought it up was so you could maybe, just maybe, consider the amount of work that has actually been put into the page when the people who demand I change it despite not seeing an ounce of what goes on behind the scenes could maybe understand WHY I'm not rolling over and letting you all demand what I do with this page.

What, so you want me to roll over so you can all carry on talking about me as if I'm not here? No. That's not fair.

The advice was because you are getting upset, understandably. you being here or not isn't going to change the conversation, clearly it's set on going one way.
Nothing you say or do is going to alter that now, all the thread is doing is making you feel worse.

Here's the thread where Mumsnet announced their "We Believe You" campaign. It came about because Mumsnetters asked Mumsnet to act - the campaign was specifically about believing female rape victims because in patriarchy women and girls are automatically disbelieved, questioned and slandered. Women's history is often erased but I think this is important:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/mumsnet_campaigns/1424654-We-Believe-You-were-launching-our-rape-awareness-campaign-today?messages=100&pg=1

Women are believed every day on these boards and supported by other women. It is quite something and something we should be incredibly grateful to Mumsnet for creating a space where this can happen.

Yeah, carry on posting here and reiterating how you are very true to your ethics and ignoring the points put to you about some women now being excluded from your page, but you think that's fair enough because you've put a lot of effort in and you think you're right, and inclusive, and it's always been about everyone, not just women. You crack on. At least I can get some sleep having come to the conclusion that you'll probably cope just fine with a few cross posts on FWR given that you've faced down a barrage of MRA death threats before.

OK so death threats and ethics are different things.

Someone care to unpick this with Bewilderness's rules?

We get Frothy talking about being able to stand up to death threats from rapists

And then invoking that as a mark of how committed they are.

In defence against women with different opinions on whether its appropriate for there to be mixed sex support under the banner of 'her'.

Hmm.

maybe understand WHY I'm not rolling over and letting you all demand what I do with this page

I think a lot of the early outrage was a bout how you dealt with the fallout rather than the choice you made - allowing slurs used exclusively for women to stand on your page and deleting responses

but yes, if you're going to use 'her' in your page name, it's misleading if your page isn't actually about women

Yours, FrothyDragon, is not the first faux female support page on FB to get in trouble with followers when they find out you are not who you said you were. Another former feminist who gave it up for men's rights. Cool story, bo.

5th rule of misogyny: Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

Is anybody making demands?

My opinion that you need to change the name is just that ,an opinion. I think it's the right thing to do and I hope you think about it FrothyDragon. You've individualised something that is collective, women's collective experience of men's sexual violence against us which is used to oppress us and keep us as the sex class under patriarchy. The victim who you started the page for is one of many women, there are so many of us who are victims/survivors. Rape is a political act that men use against women for terrorism and control. Something that your FB will now completely obscure. If we can't name it we can't fight it.

Oh and if we can't name women, we can fight for them (us).

And now the police recording gender post is gone too.

@Joxer are you just watching EVERY thing I do on that page? Jeez, every move I make is criticised, whichever way I do it.

Give. It. A. Rest. I'm exhausted.

I have been part of the discussion on that post. I’ve just gone on to see if there are any further comments and it’s gone. Is that ok with you? Or do you not actually want people to use the page?

Give. It. A. Rest. I'm exhausted.

I think maybe it’s you that needs to take the rest. This is clearly gotten to a stage where it’s having a massive toll on you and you aren’t handling it well, at least outwardly. Maybe you need to stop?

Apologies, Joxer. Like I said. I'm exhausted. I deleted it because I'm exhausted. Moderating that when I'm in this frame of mind is a logistical nightmare.

It does no good to tell us all to shut up when you could simply log off.
FrothyDragon, I suggest you stop digging.

@Frothy I understand that you have been doing the hard work of running the page. I respect that you can set the policy, and ban whomever you want, including me.

As I understand it, your page built on a campaign started on Mumsnet (“we believe you”)? And some people who were part of that campaign, and supported your page, are now excluded from it

As a compromise, would you consider changing your name to “I believe them,” so women understand the nature of the page and can stay away if that is safer for them?

I respect your TW- inclusive stance but many, many survivors of rape will be traumatised by “her penis” etc.

If you are excluding a group of women, the kindest thing to do is make that clear upfront, which the name change would help.

Also, it would make it less painful for the Mumsnetters now blocked from the page, because your page is then distinguished from the MN campaign which preceded it.

I can see you are a kind person who wants to help people.

I mean you’re literally objecting to people using the page now.

Give. It. A. Rest. I'm exhausted

then walk away. but please don't try to emotionally manipulate the women here into feeling that they can't talk about your choice

you made a choice that you feel is valid, that's fine. it's also fine (and inevitable) for people to talk about it

Frothy - you dug a hole for yourself - this bollocks about inclusiveness is bogus because, as is being pointed out to you here, it's actually exclusionary of many of the very people - women, remember them? - you set your page up for.

And with every post on here, you're digging it deeper. You're putting your butt hurt above the women you're purporting to support. It's embarrassing.

You made a decision to include some men at the expense of women.

Own it. Don't whinge when it's pointed out to you.

Moderating that when I'm in this frame of mind is a logistical nightmare.

Moderating that (shit) in any frame of mind is a nightmare for anyone. That’s why you shouldn’t even open the doors to it.

X-post with someone else saying the same thing

Although it’s still painful for all involved , I think the name (given its origin) really rubs salt in the wound

@2BthatUnnoticed

For what it's worth, said Mumsnetters were unblocked earlier today.