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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

I Believe Her

450 replies

Brittany2019 · 18/10/2019 20:51

This is disappointing :

I Believe Her
OP posts:
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6
Karabair · 20/10/2019 21:22

I guess calling us a bunch of man-haters in a round about sort of way just wasn't enough.

Dropping "gender critical" and "class analysis" in without having a clue what they mean was quite amusing too.

FrothyDragon must be so proud you're defending her Powery.

PowerFlowerrr · 20/10/2019 21:24

I just don't believe anyone has the right to issue orders based on their differing opinion. Exactly how important do you think you are? Confused

Karabair · 20/10/2019 21:25

Well obviously not as important as you Powery.

FrothyDragon · 20/10/2019 21:25

Look, if any of you had been running the page for seven years, complete with death threats, deleting victim blaming comments from the page at two AM, three AM after the backlash from various cases, then I'd take your comments about changing the name of the page into some consideration.

If you'd been in the inbox of IBH, I might consider what you have to say.

I am tempted to tell a load of you to fuck off, but this is hardly a valuable resource of my time or energy. A lot of you seem to think that the glimpses you get through the page of my own personality, thoughts, feelings and whatever gives you enough knowledge of me to chastise me. It doesn't.

Regarding turning comments off on a page, you can't. It's a page, not a group. So, if you could all refrain from insulting my intelligence then that'd be great, too, thanks.

To the people on this thread who have, to any extent, defended me. Thank you. This thread has had me in tears at points. This has been little more than a pile on, with my words and points twisted and misconstrued.

I'm human, do you all forget that? We aren't going to agree on everything, but did I really deserve all of this? Really?

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 20/10/2019 21:30

This thread has had me in tears at points

I mean this in the kindest possible way, but please hide this thread, you've done what you felt was best, this thread isn't going to change that, it's just going to make you feel shit.

Karabair · 20/10/2019 21:30

Although, to get back to analysis, it's interesting you see this as some kind of personal hierarchy which apparently you get to judge, rather than whether an argument or opinion is sound and is based on logic and fact.

It's true that the name of and idea behind FrothyDragon's Facebook page comes from radical feminism - the radical act of believing women when we talk about what men have done to us. This did not happen before radical feminists did the work on men's sexual violence and it has changed the culture.

So for her to use that particular slogan whilst simultaneously throwing rad fems and rape victims under the bus is galling and also worth challenging.

I'm sorry you disagree, but unlike you I'm not going to tell you to get fucked.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 20/10/2019 21:32

That said people have the absolute right to tell you how they feel about what is supposed to be a safe space.

BeMoreMagdalen · 20/10/2019 21:33

You know, I haven't forgotten it, and you're actually more likely to get a lot of sympathetic noises on here about it than you are from the gaggle of transactivists on your page who are insisting that recognizing gender identity is much more important than a woman being able to talk about her assault clearly.

I think you probably know that, tbh, which is why you're here, and fuck me, despite me being incredibly fucking angry about this, as a twice raped woman, I'm actually feeling bad for you and questioning how I'm reacting, because yes, I probably shouldn't rail at you over the incredible entitled selfishness of the activists who you've accommodated. But none of us behave perfectly always, and maybe every woman here is testament to that.

FrothyDragon · 20/10/2019 21:35

They have the right to voice their opinions, sure. But this level? I have spent seven years making that space as safe as I can. There's only so safe a space can be when it's a public page. And I've worked hard to make it as safe as it has been over that time.

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 20/10/2019 21:38

They have the right to voice their opinions, sure. But this level?

It's a page for women who are survived something horrific, and they are at their most vulnerable.

The surprise you seem to have at the reaction of this space being removed, surely you knew what you were doing?

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 20/10/2019 21:40

People feel betrayed, and they are aiming this at you because it was your choice.

JoxerGoesToStuttgart · 20/10/2019 21:43

You’ve changed the whole purpose of the page frothy, but you’re still operating it under the original name which completely misleads any woman going there for support after rape. Can you not see that?

FrothyDragon · 20/10/2019 21:44

I have not removed that space. It has always been prone to targeting from MRAs rape apologists and outright trolls.

My point has never been to invite in anyone who furthers rape culture, victim blaming and rape apology. At the point of the Blazey-Ford revelations about Brett Kavanugh, there were points I was arriving at college on no sleep because the victim blaming and rape apologia had been coming in overnight at rates you wouldn't believe. So if you ever considered it a safe space, consider the effort I was putting in to make it so.

Because, at times, for me it hasn't been

CaptainKirksSpikeyGhost · 20/10/2019 21:45

But it's done, the door is open, that's it.
You know the reaction of everybody here, and although you might feel you need to keep coming back please hide the thread and walk away.

Lifeinthelastlane · 20/10/2019 21:45

It sounds like you made it safe, and then you blew it up.

Karabair · 20/10/2019 21:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2019 21:47

OK so we've moved from

"these are my ethics"

To

"I've had death threats"

Which almost suggests that the ethics have been influenced by death threats.

If that's the case, I think every one would rather there was just an admission here rather than hiding behind the bullshit that there's personal ethics involved.

Personal preservation is a different thing to upholding ethics as it exposes a very different decision making process.

FrothyDragon · 20/10/2019 21:48

I have not changed the purpose of the page, at all. It has always been about supporting survivors of rape - at times, specific ones - and the reason the page is staying "I believe her", nothing else, is because the overwhelming number of victims of rape are women and girls.

Sometimes giving consideration to other survivors of rape doesn't take away from that.

JoxerGoesToStuttgart · 20/10/2019 21:49

there were points I was arriving at college on no sleep because the victim blaming and rape apologia had been coming in overnight at rates you wouldn't believe.

All utterly pointless now you’ve just rolled over and welcomed them all in, isn’t it?

FrothyDragon · 20/10/2019 21:50

No, the death threats and the inclusivity issues were separate things.

The death threats came, along with so many other things, from the supporters of various rapists over time.

Karabair · 20/10/2019 21:52

the overwhelming number of victims of rape are women and girls

And why is that? Or is it just a coincidence? Or is there knowledge and analysis we can draw on that would explain this phenomenon?

FrothyDragon · 20/10/2019 21:52

@joxer, I have not invited them in. Victim blaming and rape apologia are still not being tolerated on the page.

FrothyDragon · 20/10/2019 21:53

Karabair, of course I know why that is. Again, don't insult my intelligence, I'm finding your tone extremely patronising and offensive

RedToothBrush · 20/10/2019 21:53

Women need to know what the situation is with the page. Is it one which stands up to and protects them from threats. Or a place where those running it, have felt they've had to bow to pressure and have allowed people in whom some women would be uncomfortable and feel threatened by.

The whole point of a safe space is...

... This is the essence of the issue.

This isn't a personal attack. This is an observation of what the state of play appears to be, so that those involved with the page can make informed decisions about whether they feel they can continue to support / use it. Or find an alternative.

JoxerGoesToStuttgart · 20/10/2019 21:54

It has always been about supporting survivors of rape

Female survivors. That’s what it was always about. That’s why it started. Now it’s not. It’s for all rape survivors- so female rape survivors are now coming for support and seeing members of the sex class that is responsible for their trauma. retraumatising them. but that’s not clear in the name. I don’t want to talk about my rape around men. Men can never understand what I went through as a woman. I’ll go as far as to say that these men don’t want to understand what I went through as a woman. They just want to talk about themselves. Which is fine- but find another space.