“He makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up” - warning signs you have observed

[AnyOldPrion]

Thanks to the Relationships board, I now have a better understanding of the red flags that can occur early in a relationship that indicate risk.

But it crossed my mind earlier that sometimes there are men (and possibly women) who set off instincts that make us feel unsafe.

Please don’t mention any names, or specific people, but what signs have you noticed that might consciously or subconsciously have triggered that response?

I’m personally not good at this, but I will try to start with a couple of things. These are things that happen when I’m in the same space as someone, but sometimes I have that reaction to photographs or recordings and I’m not sure why. I’d love to be able to understand what it is I’m picking up on.

Standing a little too close and/or moving towards me when I have moved away.

Being watched/stared at/eyes wandering.

Not backing off when asked.

Thanks in advance to anyone more observant.

That's a good question. This always makes me think of an old neighbour who lived in the flat across the hall. I remember my dp at the time saying to me after we met him 'Don't open the door to him if you're alone' and me replying 'Absolutely not'.
On the surface, neither of us could pinpoint a single thing that he did other than being a bit starey but we both picked up on it separately. It was something about his eyes.

My instant dislike of someone. My gut has never been wrong.

There's a couple I know, and I don't like either of them. She seems ok at times I guess, but I don't trust her, and He just... seems off. Like, I wouldn't be surprised to find out in years down the line that he's been caught sharing inappropriate images or something. Dodging tax even. I know he cheated on his wife so heaven knows why they got back together...

There's another guy I know. Didn't like him, again something about him that I instantly got my hackles up. Turns out he used to run a nudist colony and had inappropriate photos found in his possession.

It's usually old men, but my sister isn't keen on an uncle of ours. I don't have that gut feeling, but he is very up himself. Sister will avoid him when able to. (He's not abused her, she'd have gone to the police/told me about it/would never be anywhere near him at all if that was the case)

I don't think this is very helpful.

I would imagine there are as many charming abusers out there as classic creepy guys.

Hindsight is however very real and telling victims that if they had only picked up on the "signs" isn't very helpful.

Oh, the one that springs to my mind was very, very charming. Well liked, good looking, pleasant and a complete gentleman. But he set my skin off every time we met.

Turns out he was a truly bad 'un with form and a few name changes!

Sorry, posted too soon.

I think OP is saying that the early warning tingle is something you can listen to and be right. Not that there are always signs... might be because she said sometimes

Hindsight is however very real and telling victims that if they had only picked up on the "signs" isn't very helpful.

That is not at all my intention. There are some people who trigger those feelings and if it is a genuine phenomenon, then it might help to try to quantify it.

As I implied in my first post, I very much wish I had understood, or at least had some idea of, the red flags that exist. I have compassion for women trapped in those relationships and I have empathy with them as I am a serial victim.

Perhaps there are no signs. If that’s what you believe, then fine.

But if there are some, pretending they don’t exist, or not mentioning them on principle, so as to avoid hurting the feelings of a theoretical person who missed them would be counterproductive.

Instinct can be a wonderful warning system, but as others have said there can be some "charmers" who slip past the defences.

Not sure about the standing too close thing, I have known lots of people who do this and I think it's a cultural thing, because they are non-British, and have often been women. In particilar a Bulgarian woman I worked with who stood far too close for my comfort.

Instinct can be a wonderful warning system

I agree. But what is it that triggers that instinct?

Vis a vis standing too close, yes, there might be cultural differences.

Just remembered I have seen other threads where the “duping delight” facial expression is described when people give away their pleasure when lying.

Sorry, not lying... manipulating someone.

As I see it red flags are behavior patterns that you can observe.

While I wouldn't want to hang out with someone who made my flesh creep, creepiness is not necessary a sign anything is wrong or that a lack of creep isn't a sign that everything is alright.

I'd want something a bit more empirical.

I'm often wary of people who seem far too attentive to everyone- eg. from first meeting using everyone's names repeatedly, trying 'too' hard to show they've remembered something about you, wanting to be the one who sorts out any minor problems etc.
I've always felt a bit uncomfortable with such people and have had a few run ins where this instinct turned out to be right. As an example, there was a man who became part of my group of friends when we were at college who was like this- most people thought he was really charming and lots of women fancied him. For about 6 months he was in our house most days, came on nights out etc (even though he was the only man) and even had a brief fling with one of my housemates. His name came up shortly after when someone was complaining of harassment. When we got talking about him it turned out each of us assumed he was a friend one of the others but it seems like he had just randomly started sitting with a large group of friends in the pub one night, found out where we lived and turned up the next day acting as though one of us had invited him over. It turned out he was not even a student but had been hanging around the student bar doing this sort of thing for a couple of years. From the sounds of things someone else had called him out and he did not take kindly to it

I'd want something a bit more empirical.

Well yes, that’s what I’m trying to elicit. Are there genuinely triggers for those instincts? Have people observed signs then been proved right. I realise this is not scientific, but someone, at some point, put together those behavioural observations.

Perhaps there are none for this, and our instincts are all wrong. It’s likely they would not be 100% accurate, but I tend to think instincts developed for good evolutionary reasons.

So if we have those instincts, which behaviours or visual clues trigger them? Is there something we can quantify?

I instantly thought of my MP when I read your title. No idea what it was about him but he came to my door shortly before an election once & I couldn't get away fast enough. I didn't know enough about his politics to dislike him for that reason, there was just something about him that made me uncomfortable. I might have voted for him if I'd not met him...!

Other people who I've had similar feelings about include an old friend - lots of he-said/she-said in his divorce but I'm inclined to believe her & have stopped listening to other people's "he's a good guy" comments. I've always felt there was something a bit off about him. Ditto my aunt's new husband, although I think he might just be a bit "odd" rather than actually dangerous, & my DSis's new boyfriend. It's still very new but she's completely besotted & a few of the things she's said have made me wonder if he might be gaslighting her. She's so headstrong she won't listen to any criticism of him so I've just got to bite my tongue & see how it plays out. Oh, & my friend's DH... He's a very confident, pillar of the community type but I've always felt rather uncomfortable around him. A few things my friend has said have added to my concerns but she downplays everything & I suspect there might be more to the story than she tells me.

No idea what it is about these men that triggers my discomfort though - perhaps it's an over-confidence that defies the expectations I have for social interaction. Sort of like they're trying too hard to be likeable & therefore maybe they've got something to hide?!

At least 3 of the men I mentioned pay very close attention when you're talking & pause for a moment before responding... I wonder if that's what I find uncomfortable, that they seem to have to choose their words carefully even in a small talk conversation to make sure they're saying the right thing. Maybe my brain feels like they should be able to have a smoother back & forth conversation & if they have to pause to think about what they say then perhaps it's to avoid giving anything away & maintaining their mask, therefore they can't be trusted.

Have you seen 'the gift of fear'?

I am absolutely crap at noticing my instincts and really don't notice myself feeling nervous about someone in real time. Only as a pp said in hindsight.

What I seem to do is quite Stockholm syndromey - like the way there's fight or flight or freeze or friend - I seem to go for friend.

It might be how I was brought up to mask my autism. The more distressed I am the more I mask and don't act genuine and don't process my feelings.

So it's like everyone thinks I'm getting on very well with this person.and maybe a year later they're not in the picture any more and I'm very relieved and can unpick it.

It's easier for me to spot someone being inappropriate with someone else - not with me.

Boundary invasions, not listening when someone asks eg for more space etc
Gaslighting basically

Read The Gift of Fear, by Gavin de Becker.

One that I remember from it is people who ride roughshod over your expressed wishes, no matter how politely. Could be insisting on carrying your shopping, or on paying the bill, or giving you a lift. All things that can be perfectly nice favours for a friend, but become deeply creepy after you've told them not to.

I had a bit of a non-experience that reminded me how important it can be to trust your instincts. Professionally, met a man who I couldn't stand. Jovial enough, not actually rude but clearly didn't pick up on any social signals and strongly motivated to try to make himself look good (unsuccessfully) in front of groups. I found him deeply weird and irritated and avoided. One day I was bored shitless and googled him. Turned out he'd been struck off one professional register for deeply inappropriate (though not actually criminal) conduct towards a girl aged under 18 (he was 40+).

Ok so
Call me crazy..
I have noticed a particular stance that many male perpetrators of violent abuse have in common.
It’s quite basic, but it’s palms that face backwards when hanging by their sides, and especially when walking.
I think I I learned it as a danger sign while living with a man that could go from 0-100 anger level in seconds . I developed a kind of hyper vigilance to body language. At times I feared for my life, so no small matter.
Since then I’ve worked with perpetrators of violent abuse and I’ve noticed this characteristic.
The angrier they are, the more they display this peculiar sign.
Strange.

I called in on a friend one day, because I was walking home past his house with a bit of shopping. Completely platonic friendship, neither of us interested in the other, but admired each other's work. He had some books piled on a coffee table, and when I was shifting them to put my bag of shopping down a book about addiction to internet porn caught my eye :( The hair literally stood up on the back of my neck, I could feel a creeping sensation there and on my temples :( I suddenly realised that I was alone, nobody knew where I was, if I disappeared it would be a complete mystery. Afterwards I gave myself a talking-to, and decided it was probably to do with his work with AA (he acted as a mentor, as he'd been an alcoholic at one time), but I never went there again without letting someone know I was there. It made me realise how much I was taking my safety for granted, and that no female can afford to think they know everything about friends or acquaintances.

I haven’t seen “the gift of fear” but I shall go look for it, thanks.

”So it's like everyone thinks I'm getting on very well with this person.and maybe a year later they're not in the picture any more and I'm very relieved and can unpick it.”

This is what I’ve been like in relationships. I can often unpick afterwards where it went wrong, even pinpoint one psychological moment where I can see it began. But learning from personal experience was too slow and I had children with someone and am still trying to extract myself years later. That’s why I wish I’d had access to the information I now have.

The very close attention and pause before speaking is interesting, AGnu.

Sometimes it's something in the eyes, their expression is a fraction too intense. Or an intense gaze held too long. Leaves me with an impression of being studied like prey. Apparently sociopaths can stare at you too long because it doesn't make them embarrassed. Nothing embarrasses them. They learn not to stare too long but I wonder if sometimes they just forget or judge it wrong.

I read the Gift of Fear book mentioned by a PP after being (briefly) stalked in my early 20s, it was really good.

“It’s quite basic, but it’s palms that face backwards when hanging by their sides,”

Perhaps a stupid question, but do you mean they hold their fingers loose? Or can their hands be curled into fists, but just facing backwards?

Thanks for the input. I think sometimes observations can become very acute when there is genuine and obvious risk.

The trouble is I can come up with a list of people who have been proved to be total bastards but gave nothing away, ever until they were caught.

I'm not saying ignore your feelings, I've removed myself from situations I didn't feel comfortable in , it's just a bit vague.

@Anyoldprion open , and facing backwards.
Probably not relaxed as such, but absolutely palms facing backwards when walking.
People will read this and think this is totally nuts and judgemental, but if I saw this with a guy I was on a first date with ... I’d run a mile , every time.

I was going to suggest the gift of fear as well.

My ex had a certain look that would come over him if he was angry, it was almost exactly like a red mist I suppose. It was like he'd left and someone else was in charge of his body. Really really frightening. If I ever see it again I won't stick around anywhere near that person.