“He makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up” - warning signs you have observed

[AnyOldPrion]

Thanks to the Relationships board, I now have a better understanding of the red flags that can occur early in a relationship that indicate risk.

But it crossed my mind earlier that sometimes there are men (and possibly women) who set off instincts that make us feel unsafe.

Please don’t mention any names, or specific people, but what signs have you noticed that might consciously or subconsciously have triggered that response?

I’m personally not good at this, but I will try to start with a couple of things. These are things that happen when I’m in the same space as someone, but sometimes I have that reaction to photographs or recordings and I’m not sure why. I’d love to be able to understand what it is I’m picking up on.

Standing a little too close and/or moving towards me when I have moved away.

Being watched/stared at/eyes wandering.

Not backing off when asked.

Thanks in advance to anyone more observant.

Or another.
Once I was new to a town.
And I was chatting to one of the locals (an older guy) about long distance running, good routes and so on.
Then he suggested he’d love to show us round (the kids and me)
“I’d love nothing better” he said “than to bundle you all up in the boot of my car and take you for a drive”.
😱 He kind of laughed and made a little whoops joke out of it but it just made my hairs stand on end.
I have no idea why it came out that way, but the way he suggested it sounded as though he had bundled someone in to the boot of his car before.
I felt ill whenever I saw him after that, and made sure I warned my children to avoid him.
It might of been a slip of the tongue, but I wasn’t going to wait to find out.
He went on to live a new life somewhere like Thailand with a much younger woman he met online.

*have been not of been

Another recommendation here for the Gift of Fear! The author really seems to get what it's like for women in terms of conditioned niceness, where the biggest battle is learning to overcome the conditioning to please other people and instead listen to the internal warning that something is not right. An "uh-oh" feeling that means you have unconsciously picked up on some cues that make you feel unsafe.

I feel mine as a prickling sensation on the back of my neck and scalp. It's sometimes quite subtle but I've learned to recognise it and listen to it. A friend of mine feels it in her gut, almost like low-level nausea.

Things that set off my warning bells include accompanying me somewhere when there's no need to - a colleague trying to walk with me to the (deserted) car park even though he didn't have a car there, or a man in a bar wanting to "help" me carry a round of drinks to my table even though I already had a tray. It doesn't sound like a lot but it set my neck/scalp prickling and I wouldn't go along with it.

Or as a op mentioned, eye contact that goes on for a fraction too long and not in a friendly way. Prickle prickle prickle.

Some things are more obvious in hindsight but happened when I was younger and didn't want to make a fuss A man sitting next to me on a night bus even though most seats were empty. A man on a crowded Paris metro who kept trying to stand close behind me as I stood holding onto a bar, regardless of how I turned. Eww.. but I remember I felt the prickling sensation.

I can think of two instances:

• local taxi driver picked me up on a work call. It was only a short ride in daylight. I sat very neutrally and deflected nosy questions about where I lived etc. Internally/mentally, klaxons were going off and I was clawing at the doors and windows wanting to get out and paying extremely close attention to the route. I couldn’t tell you every detail that specifically alarmed me, but I remember he had a very piercing gaze (using the mirror). I am certain he knew he was making me uncomfortable and was enjoying it.

• Window cleaner at our old house. He asked once to come in to fill his bucket and, being a less worldly 20-something people pleaser, I agreed. There was something ‘off’ about the whole encounter and the attention he paid to the inside of our house. I breathed a huge sigh of relief once I got him out of the front door. It’s possible his intent was burglary, rather than sexual, but he made me very uncomfortable. I decided after never to let someone in again - if I was minded to help, I’d take the bucket, shut the door in the person’s face and return it filled. I still see him around my area and cross the street to avoid him.

Certainly physical things like standing too close, staring too much. Also saying things, telling me to smile - once in my own home by a tradesman, this infuriated me as I need to be me at home, not put on a show for some strange man. I like to think now I'd show him the door. I was wondering recently how I'd define 'sleazy' but didn't come up with a succinct answer. But I know it when I see it. It doesn't take much for men to annoy me though - I'm getting or have got past the age when I get overtly sexual stuff (thank Gawd) but they still try to tell me what to do. This happens when crossing the road! A couple of times I've been waiting for the green man and a bloke will cross on red telling me I've got plenty of time to get over the road. I will judge that, thanks. If I were out with a man like that, I wouldn't see him again.

Strangely, the person I've had most trouble with was a woman in a non-sexual friendship (as I'd thought). I realised later I'd been groomed. We'd worked together, she'd been slightly stand-offish then let me in her 'inner sanctum' or at least made me feel chosen somehow. We hatched all sorts of plans together until I realised that not only had she become downright nasty to me but I was always the one who paid for everything. I know this might be a bit off-topic, but what I realised after this was that I have always been so busy watching for men to be total arseholes, I was missing the women.

A guy I used to work with, for no reason I knew off, I just could not stand him... I would go so far as to say I hated him! I had no reason to at all but for my instinct was and still is to stay far away!

He was overly nice to all and sundry, my DH and I called him a try hard.... harmless you'd think, and possibly so but he was so smarmy about it it made my skin crawl.
He'd go to every work night out, being plying everyone with drink but not drink himself ever.... it was like he wanted to watch everyone get bladdered and enjoy knowing who had embarrassed them self or who had gone home with who!

But the worst was the over stated "gentlemanly" behaviour... it was patronising it was sickening. He once insisted escorting one of the young girls home in a taxi.... even when she persisted that she was fine.

All things that could be explained as him being "nice" but all had a slight undertow to it that you couldn't quite put your finger on.
Those are the type of men that freak me out the most cos if you say anything, then your being an irrational female 🙄

I remember as a small girl my father giving a lift to an old probably lonely old man on a regular basis. He wanted to invite him home to tea and I feel eternally thankful to my mother who took my unease seriously and refused..I don’t think he ever tried anything .......

I have had the creepy feelings with a fair few people, but people that it wasn’t necessary I really encounter again. I couldn’t tell you if I was right because I never found out the truth.
The true warning signs, the ones I had when I did live with a dangerous man... well I saw , almost from day one, but they were entirely drowned out by everyone else’s protestations of what a wonderful human he was .To the point I doubted myself, but I never will again.
Weird things, like a terrifying , aggressive version of himself that I saw when he had nightmares.
A horrifying level of road rage.
A horrible way of talking about animals...
Of course a terrible relationship history where he was the victim. It seemed it couldn’t be true because he always operated in a way that ensured I’d have strangers stop me in the street to tell me about his latest act of chivalry or generosity. He’d do odd jobs for free, clean your windscreen, take your granny to church... everything.

Insistence. That disregard of what you've said. Never good.

Thanks for the recommendation of The Gift of Fear. I've read his book Protecting the Gift which is aimed at helping parents protect their children (partly by listening to and respecting their instincts). Well worth a read also.

The first chapter of The Gift of Fear is one of the most terrifying things I've ever read, and the explanation afterwards of what he did to get her to drop her guard has stuck with me for 15 years - I can't recommend it enough.

The man who turned into a total psychopath on me was one where there were no warning signs.

He was a nice, pleasant, quite quiet type of guy who seemed slightly depressed but really 'normal'.

Afterwards no-one believed me because 'he's so nice, so quiet.. he wouldn't be like that..'

I really don't trust men at all from him & from other men & incidents.
I certainly wouldn't be alone with a man unless I wanted to be intimate with him.. as I've learnt the hard way that many men see being alone with a woman as a sign that they want to be intimate.

I know that sounds very old fashioned but sadly a lot of men are!!

feels it in her gut, almost like low-level nausea
This. Also dont want to be physically near them.
Recently, a dear friend, really vulnerable woman introduced me to a guy, a photographer whom she said 'looked after ' her. He spoke to her like she was a child it really creeped me out. I couldnt wait to leave. Later on she was talking about his work and said he likes photographing little girls best he thinks theyre really sweet. I really wanted to share my misgivings with her but she is just out of a psyc ward. It prays on my mind often.

I had a Male colleague once who socially interrupted a conversation between myself and two of my female colleagues. We were talking about movies we liked to watch with our grown children, and we had mentioned romantic comedies and how we weren't really into horror, preferring chills to gore. He had clearly been listening and said "I'm eager to hear about your favourite porno!"
The other two women were initially taken aback - there was the briefest of pauses, and then a cheery, light hearted dismissal that I'm sure he read as being amused, but every single woman present knew was the 'smile and hope the creepy man goes away' response.
What was interesting was that he clearly thought porn was so run of the mill that it wouldn't seem out of place to bring it up in a work setting while having a tame conversation about films we watch and that our older children enjoyed.
Over the years my conviction that any man who references porn with anything other than genuine disgust, and certainly who brings it up unannounced with 'humour', has only increased. If that man is then discovered to be a huge advocate for making the filmed abuse of women even more extreme, I'd advise any woman to stay as far away as physically possible from him.

There was this family party at my grandma's. She liked (and still does) big parties with lots of people (relatives/family friends) and that particular one was no exception. There was a man at that party. I don't even know who he was actually, might have been a distant relative or someone's friend, maybe. He was just super-friendly with everyone, especially with kids (and there were quite a few children there). He jokingly danced with the girls, played and chatted with the boys, etc.

He didn't do anything inappropriate: touching, taking kids to another room - nothing of the sort. No one complained about him, nothing happened. All the kids were delighted, in fact. He was a funny man, told lots of jokes, everyone laughed.

I was maybe 9-10 years old at the time. I don't have problem with men liking kids, playing with them, etc. I knew another man who was very friendly with kids and I never felt any weird vibes/ had bad feelings about him, he was just nice. But that 'party man'.. Even though he didn't do anything bad to me or other kids and was supposedly perfectly nice, I still feel uneasy when I remember him. Something was just NOT right, although I can't even tell what exactly.

As I see it red flags are behavior patterns that you can observe... I'd want something a bit more empirical.

No. This is a classic error!

For me, the biggest red flag of all is that you can't quite put your finger on what exactly is wrong. The fact that you're looking for something more empirical is, in itself, a red flag. This is how abusers charm their way into our lives - because they know we won't run away because we're too busy looking for a scientific explanation, because they haven't technically done anything wrong yet. Because women are socialised to be polite.

It needs saying: If you have an inexplicable sense of deep unease, and you're sitting there trying to work out why, this itself is one if the biggest red flags going.

Now I know you'll say this is too vague and wishy-washy. But actually it's very distinguished from other people we don't like. Think through all the people you know that you don't like. You can usually tell us why:

• Because he harassed me in the street
• Because he's always criticising everything I do
• Because she's always gossiping at work
• Because she's always making comments about my weight
• Because she's always criticising my children

Or, think about all the first date disaster stories you've read:

• Because he spent the whole evening going on about his ex
• Because he was rude to the waiting staff
• Because he took me out for an expensive meal and then realised he'd forgotten his wallet
• Because he left me waiting for a bus on my own in the middle of the night

These people may just be run-of-the-mill disasters.

It's the more mysterious ones you have to look out for. And one if the dangers is that you tend to stick around to try and find out what's wrong, because you're naturally curious and want to solve the mystery. But the mystery is usually that he's an abuser. And by the time you realise that, it's usually way too late.

Yep @tectonicplates that is very true.

Yes also minimizing porn as ‘smut’ or similar expressions, like dirty old men saying ‘cheeky mags’

Or ‘all men watch porn’.
Well no they don’t Mr.
But you do, and that’s why you are shit in bed.

According to a friend who's a consultant psychiatrist, glasses with yellow tinted lenses are a warning sign that all is not right.

Oooh @wigglybeezer why is that?

I have recently started working with a new guy.

I instinctively dislike him but haven't got a full handle on how I would categorise him yet.

He acts super friendly but when he's talking to you it's like there's this undercurrent of judgement alongside the sensation that he thinks you lack the intelligence to notice it is there.

When he suggests things it's the same, total assumption that he's suggesting something you could never have thought of

But ultimately my issue with him is his "comebacks" and alleged banter - it is always just slightly over the line with a sexualised element

I don't like being in a room with him and try not to have much contact.

I have had it with women also and I have always been right I seem to be able to pick up whether someone is genuine or a bully

I think a warning sign that I have noticed, actually two are :

If someone shows you who they are believe them

If someone is constantly telling YOU what THEIR attributes are to influence what you think of them eg

I'm a very compassionate person
I'd do anything for anyone
I'm a very spiritual person

Every attribute they list is an attribute they DON'T actually have but they are desperate to make you to view them that way and stop you from making your own opinion

Yup. See also MILF. Yes, porn terms are becoming more mainstream thanks to the ubiquitous nature of the filmed sexual abuse of women, but there are men I would feel comfortable challenging for unconsciously using those terms socially, and there are men who I wouldn't, which of course is the indefinable discomfort that has already been referenced.

But I definitely think a man using humour in a very subtle way to control a situation is a red flag. CS Lewis wrote something about humour that sticks with me - he made a distinction between fun humour and flippancy; whereby men make comments about sex as though it is funny as a pretext to bring up sex in conversation. They talk as though the joke has already been made, all they have to do is waggle their eyebrows. It's a bit like Eric Idle's Python 'nudge nudge wink wink' schtick, only less obviously pantomime. As so often is the case, men are actually quite good at spotting other men who are like this, which is why you find men quite open to the fact of single sex provision being undermined by self ID, because they all know what a creepy fucker will do to creep.