“He makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up” - warning signs you have observed

[AnyOldPrion]

Thanks to the Relationships board, I now have a better understanding of the red flags that can occur early in a relationship that indicate risk.

But it crossed my mind earlier that sometimes there are men (and possibly women) who set off instincts that make us feel unsafe.

Please don’t mention any names, or specific people, but what signs have you noticed that might consciously or subconsciously have triggered that response?

I’m personally not good at this, but I will try to start with a couple of things. These are things that happen when I’m in the same space as someone, but sometimes I have that reaction to photographs or recordings and I’m not sure why. I’d love to be able to understand what it is I’m picking up on.

Standing a little too close and/or moving towards me when I have moved away.

Being watched/stared at/eyes wandering.

Not backing off when asked.

Thanks in advance to anyone more observant.

I think that some people have the point backwards. Nobody's claiming that you can ALWAYS identify EVERY man who wants to harm you. But even if you can only identify a subset of such men, or if your internal alarm triggers a lot of false alarms, it's still a skill worth developing.

I tend to suspect that when people get the point that backwards, it's deliberate.

The real deal dangerous ones can be rich/charming/popular like the corporate psychopath theory. They really can pull off a good show without anyone noticing.

See, I met one of these and he scared really did make the hair on the back of my neck stand up. Handsome, superficially charming, the "could sell snow in the Arctic" type. But for some reason he set every alarm system in my body off screaming, and it turned out that he had already harmed other women. I'm glad I trusted that feeling, personally.

And, if you do find someone creepy, you are immediately on your guard.

But many women try to talk themselves out of that feeling, to their detriment, because we're socialized to do so. We would be better off not doing that. Which has been largely the point of the thread, perhaps you didn't notice?

Those saying "sometimes your Spidey senses miss a wrong in, and sometimes you react to someone who actually is a completely normal person" - well, yes, I've experienced both of these. But it doesn't mean it's useless. My day job involves working with stats and predictions based on "exceeding a threshold", and you always get misses and false positives - whether it's health care, weather forecasting, quality control of your widget machine. The question is whether this system (in this case trusting your instincts) keeps you safer than a Pollyanna-ish "assume the best in every one" approach, and comes at a lower cost (in terms of restrictions on your daily life) than the opposite extreme of a pessimistic "trust nae fucker" approach.

As a hitchhiker, I noticed that my mood affected the type men who were more likely to stop, and, surprise, if I was down or weary, the creepy ones were more likely to

This resonates with me. I've had one (mercifully brief) period of clinical depression in my life, and I swear I got hit on more in that six months than the rest of my life in total. And none of them were nice men. I felt like someone had tattooed "vulnerable woman: weirdos queue here" on my forehead.

You know when I got targeted most aggressively in the past few years? When my cat died and I was grieving. It was like being 14 again for a few weeks there in terms of how relentless it was.

Male predators are like sharks but less useful to the environment.

Yes totally , there is nothing like a period of vulnerability to bring all the predators to the surface.
As any separated/divorced woman will tell you.
You just become an instant target. Sadly most of the propositions come from the people you had the most respect for. Like the married husbands of your very best friends. It’s a minefield to navigate.

Totally agree, the thing is men naturally (not all!) will look for a chink in your armour, it’s mainly a natural built in mechanism to gain as much reproduction as possible I believe (not saying they can’t help it!

Bad times certainly does bring them out!

There is nothing "woo" about trusting your instincts! I read the Gift of Fear (amazing book thanks for the link), and the point that stands out is how often people immediately know someone is "off" but they ignore that feeling because of the person's surface presentation.
And the instinct that someone means you harm is not just a feeling. It's also the things they actually do (eg forced teaming, not hearing No) that you can train yourself to notice and not discount.
This is an extremely useful, pragmatic thing to learn, based on evidence.

Re: charm

DeBecker suggests reframing this in your mind- so instead of thinking "This man is charming", you think "This man is trying to charm me." This gives you permission to start examining his motives.

There are a few people I have met (men and women) who have had the hairs on the back of my neck standing up.

A couple of them I didn’t need to see them enter a room to have that creeped out feeling come over me .

Both are well liked thoroughly nice people by all accounts. I just can’t relax in their company.

The question is whether this system (in this case trusting your instincts) keeps you safer than a Pollyanna-ish "assume the best in every one" approach, and comes at a lower cost (in terms of restrictions on your daily life) than the opposite extreme of a pessimistic "trust nae fucker" approach.

Have tried both of these tactics.

Being incredibly naive and assuming that everyone is basically a decent person contributed to being raped three times. Trusting no one resulted in half a chronically-depressed decade spent in hermitage. Neither is terribly useful if you want to actually have a life.

Time to reread The Gift of Fear, I think.

Tyro

from me too, Tyro. I wish MN had a hug emoji too.

“But the 'trust your instincts' message is dangerous because people tell themselves they can spot wrong'uns.”

Bollocks. Not sure why there are so many naysayers on here.

There is nothing negative about learning to trust your instincts. It doesn’t make you any less wary than you would have been if you don’t pick anything up. We don’t suddenly cast aside all caution. We’re women and we’re not that dumb.

And one of the things I’ve learned to look for through bad experience is the person who is incredibly popular, to the point where everyone dances round them. Something else to factor in.

Using a mixture of protections is what women learn to do, until it’s second nature. And no, it doesn’t always protect us, and no, a woman is not to blame when an attack does occur. But honing any and all tools available makes sense.

And one of the things I’ve learned to look for through bad experience is the person who is incredibly popular, to the point where everyone dances round them. Something else to factor in
Yes yes oh yes.

Trusting your instincts doesn’t come into play on every meeting.

Just sometimes you get an overwhelming urge to run

Exactly that Olivers. You don’t go into a situation and think “I’m not picking anything up, so I’ll relax in a way I wouldn’t have before I started honing my instincts”. It is simply an additional tool and the essential message here is that you should listen rather than ignore.

There is nothing negative about learning to trust your instincts.

Yep - and it does have to be learned.

Mine are shit because I've always been taught that I'm in the wrong, and this extends in every direction. Spent a long time assuming that I was bad at reading people and compensated for this by being far too trusting. Then spent a long time assuming that my instincts were too crappy to keep me safe, and compensated for this by withdrawing from everybody.

It's actually quite useful to hear someone say that one can learn to be more receptive to one's instincts.

Had a very strange few days a few weeks ago, during which something clicked in my brain and I was suddenly able to consciously read people - body language, micro-expressions, etc - and draw accurate inferences about what was going on inside their heads. It was bizarre, especially when walking outside.

The only random stranger I remember from that time, even from a distance something felt off. Much as Barracker described way upthread. Didn't dare meet the bloke's eyes, and as I passed him I could physically feel malevolence radiating off him. No idea what I'd picked up on, but I was on high alert, pulse racing, guts clenching, prepared to run.

Made me realise though - I do have instincts. Always did. Just learned to squash them without even realising it.

Thanks to whoever posted the link to the Gift of Fear. Really interesting

And one of the things I’ve learned to look for through bad experience is the person who is incredibly popular, to the point where everyone dances round them. Something else to factor in
Yes yes oh yes.

I will add my support to this. A very sage, much older woman told me to pay attention to who tried to ‘court’ me when I was new in a job - I was temping in my early 20s and not long out of uni. It was excellent advice. These are often the most toxic people in any environment, though often the most subtle at sowing disharmony and game-playing.

Would say as well often your first instinct is right, at the beginning.

Something might just seem off or slightly strange but you brush it away, that’s when it starts to blur and you lose your instinctive edge on the situation.

So sorry, wrong thread.

orangepearl yes that is it. Feeling something instinctive but then allowing something like socialisation to be nice, or a conscious thought process, to override the gut feeling.

More often than not these feelings are a reaction to unusual behaviour or appearance. A failure to follow social cues/rules or an appearance which would suggest ill health or a lack of resources are both instinctively creepy to humans.

We've already been over that, and I mentioned my former acquaintance the ridiculously good looking corporate sociopath. This is not a reaction to men looking unattractive and/or poor.

@Velveteenfruitbowl I don’t agree.
I don’t find lack of resources creepy at all?
Many times in my life I’ve been in very poor places, places with high rates of homelessness, real poverty etc. No heightened level of alertness as such.
Years of living in cities, working in busy places, dealing with people who are intoxicated with drink and drugs...
All probably had an appearance or behavior that was a bit off.
But this here is something different.
This is the feeling you can’t put your finger on.