“He makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up” - warning signs you have observed

[AnyOldPrion]

Thanks to the Relationships board, I now have a better understanding of the red flags that can occur early in a relationship that indicate risk.

But it crossed my mind earlier that sometimes there are men (and possibly women) who set off instincts that make us feel unsafe.

Please don’t mention any names, or specific people, but what signs have you noticed that might consciously or subconsciously have triggered that response?

I’m personally not good at this, but I will try to start with a couple of things. These are things that happen when I’m in the same space as someone, but sometimes I have that reaction to photographs or recordings and I’m not sure why. I’d love to be able to understand what it is I’m picking up on.

Standing a little too close and/or moving towards me when I have moved away.

Being watched/stared at/eyes wandering.

Not backing off when asked.

Thanks in advance to anyone more observant.

Better to be impolite than unsafe.

This x 1000

Took me a couple of decades of adulthood to get the hang of it, though

I have met rapists and murderers through my work when I did criminal law got no alarm bells most of time perfectly ordinary dull people - or I have a crap radar which is quite possible

Have you pondered @MsTswift though that perhaps you didn’t have a physical response / gut reaction because they’re probably not in ‘attack mode’ by the point that they need your services? Therefore give off less warning signals?

I think I do have a rubbish radar. Remember a late conference with counsel was dark when we came out client and I headed to his car he was giving me lift. Heard thundering footsteps was the barrister running up to us and asked client to go ahead as we had to discuss a technical point. Barrister said “Jesus Christ cannot believe you were going to get into a car with him”

Ted Bundy did that also by feigning broken limbs and asking for help.

He did. And I bet some of those women thought, "why don't you ask a man for help" when he asked them to come to his car. But they were too polite and disarmed to say no to a charming man with a plaster cast who asked them for help.

I haven't read the whole thread but I see micrpexpressios have been mentioned. I'm sure these types of uber subtle cues that you don't even register consciously are key to that tingly spidey sense feeling that you get when you encounter a wrong'un. I'm sure that if these people's reactions and expressions and body language could be taped and played back in slo mo there would be clear, observable markers for creepy fucks.

If there is a weakness or vulnerability in the defence system of a person/s or organisation, a predator will exploit it.

Bundy once said he "could tell a victim by the way she walked down the street, the tilt of her head, the manner in which she carried herself, etc . . ."

He knew who to target.

thegullfromhull Palms backwards, elbows bent slightly away from the body as if his hands are in his pockets even though they aren't, aka the posture known to Urban Dictionary as "air lats"?

It's a dominance stance that men adopt to try to make themselves look bigger and more intimidating.

I had some undermining experiences when I was younger, and nowadays I don’t waste time wondering what is setting off my radar I just get myself out of there fast.

I have no idea whether my radar is accurate or if I’m being ridiculous.

On the Myers Briggs profile I score higher on intuition than on sensing. I have impressions of things rather than being able to give a blow by blow account. I’d make a terrible sports commentator or witness because I cant seem to process the details.

I pay more attention to what’s happening to my body than to what signs other people are giving off. So I’ve nothing useful to add to the thread, except to agree with @tectonicplates

A recent one for me is a friend of my DS. I feel actually feel bad about it as he's only 8, but holy shit my internal sirens are screeching when I'm around him. Some of his questionable actions/traits are quite observable, like a couple of times I gently told him off he would parrot back what I had said to him but using his own words, almost like dodging the row and placing himself on my side agreeing with me, does that make sense? There are a few other 'issues' that just set my senses tingling...It's beyond just typical kid naughtiness stuff. Some of my DS's other mates can be absolute hellers at times and can behave far FAR worse...but this child is manipulative in a way that's beyond sly. I can't quite put words to it. And terrifying to think that the older he gets, the more he may hone those behaviours.

I have some kittens and while he wasn't overtly rough with them, he held them ever so slightly 'wrong' each time, despite being explained to several times how best to interact with them. I saw him just tip them slightly backwards or angled sideways enough to get them to struggle just the tiniest bit and I could FEEL his enjoyment from doing it. You could see it in his eyes!

I've always got DC friends over, and I do keep an eye because kids can be accidentally or unknowingly rough, but not even with a gang if preschoolers did I feel I had to watch them so hawk-like as I did him. I felt genuinely scared to let him be alone with them for even a second. I ended up bringing them all to my room rather than take that risk. Again, no real concrete reason but an almost visceral reaction to the thought of it.

I feel dreadful admitting to thinking this about a young kid, but I'm not having him over here again. I feel so...strangely uncomfortable in his presence. I've worked in a school for 10 years and not ever had a feeling like this about a child. And I'll say again, some of DS other mates can be hard work (as can DS!!) and there's one or two I have to brace myself for a play date with, but every time this kid is over I feel like I just need him out of the house and far away from me and mine.

Bloody app ate my paragraphs!!!

I honestly think this is instinct and you're probably never going to get a list of things to watch out for, because your own discomfort is actually the thing you should be paying attention to and acting on. That being said, The Gift Of Fear lists some things that men who're up to no good tend to do like boundary testing and forced teaming that you can learn to notice and consciously respond to. In fact you can start practicing here, because it's very common for TRAs who show up here to try the forced teaming. There was one who I haven't seen since I came back who had a cycle of forced teaming attempts and then lashing out when they didn't work that you could have set your clock by.

Also, works for both online and real life, someone who tries to separate you from the group and get you by yourself in order to continue what was formerly a group conversation. I see inappropriate DMs as sort of the online version of this and have had them here from TRAs.

There was one recently that read like an Emily Howard skit from someone who was almost immediately banned, it was all "It's so nice to talk to a girl about girl things". Not sexual as such, just weird and creepy.

I think that's sort of the key here, women are trained to override our "that's weird and creepy" responses because give him a chance and blah blah and honestly, no, if you don't want to then don't. Your first job is always to protect yourself and if as a result of that someone who's making you uncomfortable doesn't get to continue interacting with you then oh well, that's just too bad.

I used to volunteer at a charity and they’d have prisoners in doing community work at the end of their sentences. They had murderers, gun runners, drug importers, you name it.

I met several murderers. There was one old fella in particular who’d been inside for 30 odd years who was quite friendly. Only two ever got my hairs standing on end. One was a drug dealer who was aggressive and cocky. The other, also a drug dealer I think, was just horrible. He made me want to run as soon as I clocked him. He wasn’t unpleasant, there was just something about him, a barely contained malevolence I couldn’t put my finger on, a proper predatory type. I refused to go in again until he left. I think he got recalled for something or other.

Then a few years ago I was in Salisbury with DP visiting her late dad. We were in the park with my dog and DP went to the public loos. This bloke came over with his dog and started talking to me about it. You know when you just subtly back away from someone, I was doing that, and my dog, who was usually all wagging and excitable was backing away. Then he started in about his dog whining. He said, ‘it sounds like a woman being raped.’ If I hadn’t been waiting for DP I’d have legged it. I felt like it was a warning. I still feel a cold sick feeling remembering him.

When men say things like that, that's boundary testing. They're looking to see how you react, and if you try to control your own discomfort and go into awkward laughing and trying to be nice mode then they interpret that as meaning they can probably get away with escalating. What they seem to be looking for is a response where it's clear that the potential victim is uncomfortable but it's also clear that she's second guessing herself and doesn't feel able to push back or extricate herself from the situation.

Thank god DP came out of the loo. I’m not sure if he knew she was in there or not. I think he did.

I'm glad you weren't by yourself. That was 100% a predator sizing you up.

For stuff like this I'd definitely recommend The Gift of Fear, especially for those for whom the social training to try to talk yourself out of your responses is strong.

One early evening when I was 15 I took my doddery little dog for a walk around the park. One area was a winding path around a large pool edged by dense, high rhododendrons, more secluded than I liked.
As I entered the path at one end of the pool, a man entered from the opposite end, and then we were walking towards each other.

The longest 20 seconds of my life. I knew. I knew, immediately. He stared, and he held that stare, walking towards me, never dropping his gaze, no matter how many times I looked away and glanced back.

I spent those 20 seconds arguing with myself.
You're being ridiculous.
It's just a walk.
It's not dark.
He's just a man.
Do I keep hearing directly towards him?
If I turn in the opposite direction I'll look ridiculous.
I wish my dog wasnt so old.
Or a sheltie.
Look brave.
Look confident.
Look carefree
Look breezy.
Don't look victimy.
Call your dog. Make sure he knows you have a dog.
It's fine.
You'll be past in a second.
Don't be such a scaredy cat.

Heart pounding. Highest of high alert. For no other reason than man walking, like me, in park, but staring and giving off pure malevolent, predatory vibe.

As we reached each other to pass, he stopped. He turned to me.
And he wordlessly reached up to my neck, taking hold of one end of the dog lead which I had dangling loosely around it like a scarf. And he started to pull the lead around my neck.

I instinctively grabbed the other end of the lead with my right hand and whipped it down, hard, shearing it out of his hand. He stood, hesitated a microsecond, then ran. He ran, fast away from me.

He was never caught, although I told the police what happened, with a decent description of him.
I've thought often that I might have been his first attempted victim, pure opportunism for an impulsive crime that he tried out but abandoned. That perhaps he went on to plan and execute crimes with more planning.

Years later I learned of a serial rapist in the region, who planned his attacks carefully. His mugshots gave me a similar fear sensation, the eyes.

We're animals. If we're lucky enough to have a preserved, visceral sense of danger, we should heed it, even if we doubt it or don't understand it.

This thread is giving me the creeps. I'm going to buy that book.

Has anyone read The Sociopath Next Door? Very good. At least one in a hundred humans is like this. Their brains are wired differently. No conscience, no empathy. Others' fear makes them happy. Cecil I'd put money on your DS's acquaintance being one. I knew a boy like that. He had a dead stare like a shark. A coldness, no warmth. And he was a bully. I think hurting others gave him pleasure.

They learn to hide it and they watch us intently in order to learn to mimic us but the 'off' feeling is precisely because it's an act, not a spontaneous emotion of their own. They like to jolt us and hurt us because the sense of power and control over others is what they live for in the absence of being able to form loving relationships. A human without the capacity to love or care is a scary thing.

A key red flag to watch out for is the 'pity play' because we will allow someone more leeway when we feel sorry for them. And they know this.

It really is something in the eyes, and you can see it even in photos.

And yes, the person who we were deleted for being a bit too pointed in our criticisms of in the other thread has it, that look about the eyes. Not even trying to hide it either, in that person's case the game seems to be being as obvious as possible and then manipulating others into a position where they can't admit that they see it.

If anyone ever meets a person like that irl my advice is to get away from them as quickly as possible. Do not ever allow yourself to be manipulated into being alone with someone like that.

The handsome, successful, wealthy predator that I used to know who I mentioned in the other thread gave up after a few attempts at boundary testing in my case. Which of course just means that they pick different victims, but unfortunately all you can really do is defend yourself and be ready to step in when you see them sizing up another potential victim in your presence, and warn the people in your social circle.

The most chilling thing to me was that other men in the same circle recognized that he was a predator but remained friends with him, at least in a superficial going out drinking together and working together way. Part of the reason was that he was making some of them a lot of money, but what really chilled me is that they knew he was dangerous and warned the women they cared about not to be alone with him but apparently women who they didn't have a preexisting relationship with were fair game, or at least not important enough to be worth protecting or cutting off their relationship with the predator.

@Cecilandsnail Out of interest have you met this child's parents, and if so what are they like?

what really chilled me is that they knew he was dangerous and warned the women they cared about not to be alone with him but apparently women who they didn't have a preexisting relationship with were fair game, or at least not important enough to be worth protecting or cutting off their relationship with the predator.

That reminds me of Dr Jessica Eaton encouraging us to stop using the rhetorical technique of 'What if it was your mother/sister/daughter?' because a decent bloke should give a shit about violence against any women, not just the ones he has a personal investment in.