Is the phrase TERF really all that bad (or inaccurate)?

[pressureofaname]

This is something I’ve been thinking about recently and I wondered what views others had.

Obviously TERF is intended as, and is used as, a slur. But if you break it down and apply some critical thinking it seems to me actually helpful to use TERF as the way into an interesting discussion with people who aren’t (yet) gender critical as follows:

The big question is what feminists want to exclude transpeople from. Take the example of a transwoman who retains male genitalia, presents as male, and just woke up this morning and decided they were a woman. Would I exclude that person from a tube train? A dinner party? My place of employment? Absolutely not.

Would I exclude them from the female changing room in Topshop? Probably, yes.

Then you need to think about what “trans” means. Is there a distinction in the Topshop changing room example between people who have lived as trans for years and have a GRC and people who present as male and self-id’d that morning? Potentially so.

So yes, I am trans exclusionary in some circumstances, but by no means in all.

I do realise that this sort of critical thinking is going to be lost on the unthinking TWAW believers, but I think it might be worth a go with those who are not yet a lost cause, and it certainly makes me feel less offended about the term TERF.

It was a while ago now, but this from EarlyWalker made me LOL (in a hollow kind of way)

I hate the idea of those woman there being sold out by any ‘feminist’

how is Jacky even still on the thread she as been deleted more times than she actually makes posts that you can read.

Well that's excellent earlywalker you're a terf.

Expect your cheque from America in the post soon!

I Jacky's posts.

Sometimes I Jacky's posts.

Quite often I Jacky's posts.

'If you say something enough, it sticks. And all those potential GC allies who previously might have listened, or organisations who may have hosted you may be swayed. It gave TRAs ammo - suddenly they had ‘dirt’ on the GC scene.'

This is proper lol I love it.

The' scene '

All these orgs dying to protect women's rights but, no! An American organisation took some money from someone or something! Shit run away!

We do not live in America ffs!

'
To me personally it’s the basis of the fight that changes it, I would understand working with them on pornography, prostitution, surrogacy etc but Trans people are humans, not an action and as much as I understand the need to keep woman’s spaces free, I don’t think my conscience would allow me to work with organisations who want to strip them of all rights, refuse them the right to adopt, get married, have discrimination laws etc.'

And to repeat. WE DO NOT LIVE IN AMERICA!!!!

I mean ffs it's a totally different country, culture, political system, everything. Totally different laws. There is no one in the uk agitating to stop trans people getting married etc ffs. This is a straw man of EPIC proportions.

If you are concerned then hit up some usa chart boards fgs and stop berating uk women for whatever the fuck the religious right are up to in the usa!!!

I wish I could read jackys posts it's hard to catch up when most of them are missing lol

Odd, isn't it? One side of the argument prefers its opposition deleted and therefore unreadable. The other side is quite happy for the opposition to stay in all their glory and be read by everyone. Hmm. Confusing.

Take it up with the monitors bespin

I’d have been perfectly happy to see them stand

On my phone that thing youve awarded yourself looks like a terrifying Halloween mask :D

LangCleg

I've been reported a number of times nothing as been deleted though.

I've been reported a number of times nothing as been deleted though

In which case how do you know?

WE DO NOT LIVE IN AMERICA!!!!

so why would a group of Peoole fly over there for a flying visit to do what, or to learn what from them.

Is it your terf mask?!

Bespin how on earth do you know that. Do mnhq tell you when you're reported? They've never told me, I've only been deleted handful of times since 2005 though (shines halo).

Who is it that always says that they have 8000pms agreeing with them, can't remember.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly

because occasionally I get told that they had a number of reports on a thread and although I am within the rules they are monitoring the thread.

Yes I understand that spartacus quite clearly lots of woman here see it as the biggest issue and I respect that but That’s not my point. If I wanted prostitution illegal, and another organisation also did, but they wanted to go one step further and have all prostitutes mutilated as well, like fuck would I join in with them.

You may well be happy to join with others to fight a mutual result, that’s fine, I wouldn’t and would never join alt right christian activists.

Lots of people would join others, you crack on! Lots of feminists and non feminists will also hold similar positions to what I said, (Jean hatchett who even went to America to fight with Posie also thought like me!)

It doesn’t tend to be the people who agree with you on everything that need convincing, but my opinion doesn’t matter anyway!

Fraggling To quote the bible ‘If you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas’

Special bespin. So special

littlbrowndog

why thank you.

Why the fuck does anyone go to America?

I mean you seem really hung up on what a small group of women did a year ago? And then banging on about wolf and stopping trans people getting married, this is usa stuff it's totally fucking irrelevant.

The uk does not have usa approach to employment law, equalities matters, religion, etc etc

Keeping going on about a trip to USA by a couple of women where they talked to whoever it is, and an American feminist group who are pretty niche, feels kind of desperate.

Special bespin. So special

If MNHQ really do this they need to have a good think about the sort of community they’re trying to foster here. sounds like bobbins to me though. I’d like to think they have more sense

so all the threads about American trans people then are irrelevant is that what you are saying?