Is the phrase TERF really all that bad (or inaccurate)?

[pressureofaname]

This is something I’ve been thinking about recently and I wondered what views others had.

Obviously TERF is intended as, and is used as, a slur. But if you break it down and apply some critical thinking it seems to me actually helpful to use TERF as the way into an interesting discussion with people who aren’t (yet) gender critical as follows:

The big question is what feminists want to exclude transpeople from. Take the example of a transwoman who retains male genitalia, presents as male, and just woke up this morning and decided they were a woman. Would I exclude that person from a tube train? A dinner party? My place of employment? Absolutely not.

Would I exclude them from the female changing room in Topshop? Probably, yes.

Then you need to think about what “trans” means. Is there a distinction in the Topshop changing room example between people who have lived as trans for years and have a GRC and people who present as male and self-id’d that morning? Potentially so.

So yes, I am trans exclusionary in some circumstances, but by no means in all.

I do realise that this sort of critical thinking is going to be lost on the unthinking TWAW believers, but I think it might be worth a go with those who are not yet a lost cause, and it certainly makes me feel less offended about the term TERF.

' If I wanted prostitution illegal, and another organisation also did, but they wanted to go one step further and have all prostitutes mutilated as well, like fuck would I join in with them.'

What on the name of fuck is this now? What a vilely visceral example, and with women killed mutilated all over the world all the time what do you even think you're doing with that? Revolting.

And who wants prostitution illegal anyway? You are implying feminists do? Or what?

I have no idea what you are trying to achieve with that apart from make a lot of women feel a lot upset and ill.

Oh, interesting. I've been here since forever and never been told about monitoring of threads by MNHQ unless they are replying to me about a report I made - that's their standard fobbing-you-off reply when they don't delete what you want them to. Mind you, I hardly ever report anyone, what with thinking that the opposition's arguments are best left in all their glory.

Do they just contact you about threads out of the blue, Bespin?

I'm not on the threads you are taking about I'm on this thread.

If you mean jy, jy is Canadian. Which is also not American.

If that's what you mean.

That's an intetesting case though for sure.

no it tends to be when people attack me when thy think I have been goady or started a goady thread and act outside the rules so I report them.

Oh

I don't really go in for reporting people so I wouldn't know

Intetesting

I mean you seem really hung up on what a small group of women did a year ago

Ha, I said it once in response to someone else. People have literally asked me ‘what happened’ ‘explain this in detail’ ‘what do you think about this’

Yet when I answer, I’m really ‘hung up on it’

Clearly hit a nerve.

I’ve had my fair share of deleted comments so you (generic) do report lang some deletions I’ve had, I’ve found ridiculous.

I didn’t want jackys posts to go, particularly the ones where we were discussing what she said. I asked her to stop harassing me, she didn’t, so I reported my own post asking MNHQ if they allow harassment of individual posters. Didn’t realise they deleted all of them.

LOL.

I can't get over that mutilation post tbh

I'm genuinely taken aback

LangCleg

LOL.

it's all about the lol int it 😉

Oh good so I won't see you bring that visit or wolf up again early unless someone asks.

If you could avoid unexpected visceral comments about women being horribly murdered as well that would be even better.

And who wants prostitution illegal anyway? You are implying feminists do? Or what?

Yes I am implying most feminists do.

with women killed mutilated all over the world all the time what do you even think you're doing with that? Revolting

Yes let’s not have difficult conversations because it makes you sad 🙄
Many cultures don’t want woman to enjoy sex so they mutilate them.
Those same may not want prostitution being legal, same as me (in this example).

I’m saying I wouldn’t join with someone I completely agree with on huge points, to get one part of a mutual end result.

Earlywalker

Totally that well said, we could actually be addressing those issues that effect woman and girls all over the world.

fraggling female genital mutilation is not murder (although obviously it can and has killed girls/woman)
Please do some research. Feminists should not be ignorant on these things.

'And who wants prostitution illegal anyway? You are implying feminists do? Or what?

Yes I am implying most feminists do.'

Erm no they don't.

Most feminists are of the 'Sex positive' job like any other mould, these days.

The ones who aren't, want buying sex illegal, not selling it.

The gist seems to be that feminists want prostitution illegal and in their keeness would ally themselves with men who mutilate and murder women. I think that was the gist.

Apropos of nothing.

Yes we need to talk about awful situations, there's enough real ones around, there's no need to add to them by discussing ones from your imagination.

That post was totally nuts and vile.

Huh?

You said mutilated. I assumed you meant mutilated in the general way rather than specifically fgm.

Women and girls are mutilated by men who attack them every day. Women who work as prostitutes are at high risk of being attacked murdered and yes mutilated.

Why would I jump to assuming you are talking about fgm? I don't live in your brain thank god.

Your example was vile.
Your suggestion that feminists want women punished for being prostitutes is vile.

I really don't know where you're coming from now at all.

Fraggling

you seem to make a lot of assumptions you know you could ask for clarification before you do.

As a regular on FWR fraggling do you join in many conversations on here aside from the trans ones, out of interest?

Only, not many here seem to be in favour of the Nordic model these days.

I never said feminists would do that, I gave an example.

These are real things happening in the real world.

Girls are having their genitals mutilated to ensure they do not enjoy sex.

The alt right Christians are trying to implement anti abortion laws, anti contraception laws, ‘drain the swamp’ of people of colour, ensure poor woman can’t leave their abusive husbands, prevent any LGBT protections, ensure LGBT couples cannot adopt or get married...

real threats facing real people. Transwoman are by no means the only threat facing woman and certainly not the only ones we should talk about.

You want me to clarify what type of mutilation you are imagining prostitutes be subject to as punishment with support from feminists, when you throw out these examples from your imagination?

Fucking hell.

Erm

Nowhere that I know of has right wing christians subjecting adult women to genital mutilation as a punishment for prostition.

Your imagination is running away with you I'm afraid.

Your post was vile.
Really really vile.
Women and girls are attacked killed mutilated all the time. It's not uncommon for dangerous men to do all sorts of shit to their victims before or after death.

Invoking that imagery, that is in the news day in day out, to make some point about how mean feminists are, is really grotesque.

Are you not aware of female genital mutilation?

Give me strength.

Please, please, if you believe you are fighting in the name of woman and girls, do some research on this.

I’ve never met a feminist that didn’t know, and wasn’t externally concerned about FGM.

(I obviously never said it was due to support from feminists but I’ll ignore your attempts at turning it into that in the hope you’ll educate yourself on FGM and how you can help)

real threats facing real people. Transwoman are by no means the only threat facing woman and certainly not the only ones we should talk about.

You could absolutely start a thread about the other problems, if you wanted to, rather than de-railing this one, which is about the term TERF.

Having caught up with the thread now, I hadn't thought about the term in as much depth as some of the other posters. I wouldn't class myself as radfem or trans-exclusionary. I accept trans people and have no issue with them. As I've said before, I have trans students.

What I don't want is men in women's spaces.

Transwoman are by no means the only threat facing woman and certainly not the only ones we should talk about.

I thought trans women were no threat. Seems a bit transphobic of you.

Mutilation is mutulation.

Women and girls have their bodies mutilated by men all the time. Often after being murdered. Prostitutes are at high risk of meeting violence from their male clients, at elevated risk of being murdered.

Fgm is fgm. That is a different thing entirely.

I have no idea why you think I should be able to know that when you say mutilation, you mean fgm. Especially in relation to prostition and vawg.

To imagine punishing prostitutes with fgm is just grotesque. I mean wtf where did that even come from.

Also not sure you're allowed to say fgm any more but that's another story.