Is the phrase TERF really all that bad (or inaccurate)?

[pressureofaname]

This is something I’ve been thinking about recently and I wondered what views others had.

Obviously TERF is intended as, and is used as, a slur. But if you break it down and apply some critical thinking it seems to me actually helpful to use TERF as the way into an interesting discussion with people who aren’t (yet) gender critical as follows:

The big question is what feminists want to exclude transpeople from. Take the example of a transwoman who retains male genitalia, presents as male, and just woke up this morning and decided they were a woman. Would I exclude that person from a tube train? A dinner party? My place of employment? Absolutely not.

Would I exclude them from the female changing room in Topshop? Probably, yes.

Then you need to think about what “trans” means. Is there a distinction in the Topshop changing room example between people who have lived as trans for years and have a GRC and people who present as male and self-id’d that morning? Potentially so.

So yes, I am trans exclusionary in some circumstances, but by no means in all.

I do realise that this sort of critical thinking is going to be lost on the unthinking TWAW believers, but I think it might be worth a go with those who are not yet a lost cause, and it certainly makes me feel less offended about the term TERF.

I mean wtf where did that even come from.

There really are some sick individuals who hate women out there.

Fraggling

Well it's in all the government stuff.

The M in FGM stands for mutilation frag

And yes there are sick individuals that do and would use FGM to prevent prostitution. Please research.

That Twitter feed back on page one is amazing

I 💚 Jacky. Whomever reported her needs to get over themselves.

Bespin if you receive “monitoring” emails it can only mean you are reporting posts. You wouldn’t receive them if someone reported you. Thanks for showing that “accusations are admissions” though.

Early if you start a thread on FGM instead of derailing this one, I’d be happy to contribute.

People need to stop telling women what to discuss and what our priorities should be.

Back to the topic: I vote for MERF.

Goodness this thread has gone to some grim places.

I've got to harm back to the early days of the thread and say that term is a slur, offensive and definitely not accurate at all.

pandemos I am very sorry about what happened to you.

Goodness this thread has gone to some grim places

Hasn’t it just?

If I wanted prostitution illegal, and another organisation also did, but they wanted to go one step further and have all prostitutes mutilated as well, like fuck would I join in with them

On the occasions where the board has been permitted to discuss prostitution without being derailed by the happy hooker brigade, the consensus is generally in favour of Nordic Model - make buying sex illegal, focus on the punters and the pimps, not the prostitutes.

I must have missed that part where feminists ally with some sort of Christian hit squad that favours mutilation, but I suspect that’s because it only ever happened in one of your fever dreams, early.

There must be a name for the rhetorical style that favours throwing out some completely wild theory of something that doesn’t happen, so the poster can row back and say “oh, I wasn’t saying that happened at all, just suppose it did though?”, so the idea is planted that it happens, but they have this plausible deniability.

So odd.

I never said this thread should be about FGM don’t be so ridiculous.

As someone that cares about FGM greatly, if someone posts who appears ignorant on the subject, I will raise awareness. Careless of if the thread sets out to discuss that or not.

I don’t think raising awareness for that can ever be anything but a good thing, especially not in a feminist forum.

Responding is not derailing.

Anyway back to TERF:

Deffo not all feminists
Don’t exclude trans men
Way to put everyone in one box
Acceptable to hate ‘terfs’

Do you think MN has inadvertently contributed to the TERF thing? Because lots of people on here state they’re GC but not feminists, yet the discussion is had in the feminist section?

Lol at raising awareness.

Come off it.

You don't seem to understand that women and girls are hurt by men in a broad and imaginative way all over the world every day.

I still can't believe you posted such an utterly grotesque 'example'. To try and imply that feminists want prostition to be illegal and would support people who wanted to mutilate them as punishment in order to achieve that. And that was when I thought you meant mutilation in the usual meaning of the word, it didn't occur to me you were imagining mangling their genitals.

I mean that's just a really weird train of thought and I'm quite pleased my brain doesn't work like that tbh.

Still taken aback here.

Yes by all means start a thread about fgm and educate the women who post on fwr, I'll join it as well. In fact it would be good, two of us will post at least, will you start it? If its something you want to educate others on then it's better to do a thread of its own.

To try and imply that feminists want prostition to be illegal and would support people who wanted to mutilate them as punishment in order to achieve that

You have implied that, not me. I said as an example, if I wanted prostitution illegal, I wouldn’t work with someone who also wanted this but wanted fgm as well in response to being told it’s ‘purity politics’ that is dangerous. It was relevant to discussions. If you’re willing to fight with anyone to get the job done, careless of what else they’re fighting for, don’t cower down when the conversations get difficult.

And that was when I thought you meant mutilation in the usual meaning of the word, it didn't occur to me you were imagining mangling their genitals.

Perhaps this is another case of you being ignorant of other races and cultures? Within the people I know, it is very well known mutilation of genitals is a way that people in home countries try to prevent prostitution and ‘promiscuity’. I forgot that you talked previously about your ‘white bubble’ perhaps that explains why your brain ‘doesn’t work that way’ ?

I said as an example, if I wanted prostitution illegal, I wouldn’t work with someone who also wanted this but wanted fgm as well in response to being told it’s ‘purity politics’ that is dangerous.

No you didn't. You said mutilation and then tried to imply that the person who rightly was astounded by your leap 'educate' themselves as they obviously don't know about fgm.

You are just a wind up merchant.

What on earth.

You really think that bringing that totally made up vile scenario onto this thread apropo of nothing was a normal thing to do?

And i find it odd that you think you can use words that have one meaning, use them to mean something else, and then get irate when people don't guess what you meant.

Mutilation is a word. It has a meaning.
FGM is a phrase that has a distinct meaning.

Mutilation is used to punish crime in some parts of the world. It's not uncommon for men to mutilate women as part of an attack. It's in the news not infrequently.

It was your imagination that made a connection between punishing prostitutes and mutilating their genitals. Which is really fucking grim. The fact you expected everyone to know what you meant when that isn't what you wrote is kind of worse.

No you don't get to call me racist because when you give an 'example' of feminists supporting punishment of prostitutuion by mutilation, I don't leap to the conclusion that you are imagining mutilating their genitals.

In the context of warning women about getting into bed with right wing American fundamentalists it's even more of a reach. While I am aware that there have been reports of fgm in extreme christian sects in usa, I'm not aware of it being done to adults or as punishment. That came out of your head.

Fraggling.

Leave it, Early isn't worth it.

We can all see what they are doing.

I wasn’t talking about the USA or about feminists aligning with people who do that.

You made that leap.

It's just fascinating, I've never met someone who behaved this way irl

For which I am very grateful!

The 'words mean what I think they mean' and the reversals are very very interesting to see though. I think early is quite good at it tbh, so it's quite educational in a way. To see it done.

*Leave it, Early isn't worth it."

*We can all see what they are doing."

^ this.

I like that v eastenders

Does that make me grant Mitchell 😂😂😂

I’m off this thread anyway. I’m not going to respond to direct points just to have my points accused of derailing and like I have some ulterior motive.

Try and continue without me if you can

Gross.

I've been reported a number of times nothing as been deleted though

That's not true though, Bespin.

I've been following this thread and agree with the 'grim' comments. Horrible.