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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is the phrase TERF really all that bad (or inaccurate)?

349 replies

pressureofaname · 07/08/2019 20:17

This is something I’ve been thinking about recently and I wondered what views others had.

Obviously TERF is intended as, and is used as, a slur. But if you break it down and apply some critical thinking it seems to me actually helpful to use TERF as the way into an interesting discussion with people who aren’t (yet) gender critical as follows:

The big question is what feminists want to exclude transpeople from. Take the example of a transwoman who retains male genitalia, presents as male, and just woke up this morning and decided they were a woman. Would I exclude that person from a tube train? A dinner party? My place of employment? Absolutely not.

Would I exclude them from the female changing room in Topshop? Probably, yes.

Then you need to think about what “trans” means. Is there a distinction in the Topshop changing room example between people who have lived as trans for years and have a GRC and people who present as male and self-id’d that morning? Potentially so.

So yes, I am trans exclusionary in some circumstances, but by no means in all.

I do realise that this sort of critical thinking is going to be lost on the unthinking TWAW believers, but I think it might be worth a go with those who are not yet a lost cause, and it certainly makes me feel less offended about the term TERF.

OP posts:
JackyHolyoake · 09/08/2019 18:29

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Earlywalker · 09/08/2019 19:00

So there’s a huge difference between all And each and every one of them Then jacky?

And you didn’t quote a post about TRA’s and say ‘those anti-woman activists’ and then clearly use that term to describe TRAs throughout?

It’s all in my head yeah? My ‘distortions’ that everyone is aware of?

It’s easy enough to say ‘I wasn’t referring to TRA’s when I said anti-woman activists’ or just owning your shit. It’s not fair to pretend you said nothing of the sort and that I’m crazy and ‘everyone knows it’

JackyHolyoake · 09/08/2019 19:04

Ha ha! You are hilarious!

And you didn’t quote a post about TRA’s and say ‘those anti-woman activists’ and then clearly use that term to describe TRAs throughout?

It is you who presents h-self as the 'know-it-all' here ... work out the difference for yourself!

Cascade220 · 09/08/2019 19:12

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Fraggling · 09/08/2019 19:12

I wasn't aware that the non gc 'side' viewed 'tra' and 'anti women activist' ads interchangeable .

That is really interesting.

JackyHolyoake · 09/08/2019 19:21

Posie and Julia entered an open room to ask a lobbyist questions, the lobbyist did not work there, but was there for the purpose of lobbying.

And that lobbyist ["Sarah" McBride] is the current National Press Secretary for the Human Rights Campaign, whose job it is to respond to questions raised on behalf of HRC [USA equivalent of Stonewall UK].

As an aside, "Sarah" McBride is now a Democrat Party candidate for election to the Senate in Delaware.

[Vulnerable and fragile? Maybe not!]

www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstaceyennis/2019/07/10/transgender-activist-sarah-mcbride-is-running-for-office/

Earlywalker · 09/08/2019 19:29

Jacky it’s obvious to everyone with their eyes open what you’re doing. You said those anti woman activists.... again your post appeared as if you were referring to TRAs as anti-woman activists. If you don’t see them as Anti-woman activists and that’s not what you meant, feel free to clarify?

Yes I did say they did lots of things while in America.

Here’s the video - m.youtube.com/watch?v=ekjiSliteKU

Interesting how ‘lobbyists are robust types’ and it was an ‘open room’ so ok to enter and call her ‘he’ and get quite close in her face, but GC lesbians protesting at pride should’ve been left alone... double standards there?

The heritage foundation itself is an extreme far right ‘think tank’ who talks about trumps America ‘draining the swamp’ and the low IQs of non white people.

She also went there to meet and make videos with Emily Zinos, a conservative Christian who’s protesting history includes anti-abortion and anti-contraception. She’s a member of a council with is an arm of an organisation called ‘focus on the family’ which protests gay marriage and gay adoption amongst many things.

Again, Wolf is an anti-lgbt organisation who receives funding from Christian organisations aiming to make families ‘christian’ again.

Again, my point was who you are associating with.

I did a lot of research before I made up my mind on That whole USA thing. Posie, Julia... are just individuals, the acceptance of it is interesting though.

Cascade220 · 09/08/2019 19:32

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littlbrowndog · 09/08/2019 19:35

Haha Spartacus nailed it

Earlywalker · 09/08/2019 19:35

Care to elaborate spartacus?

The quote I made which was questioned said:

Jacky they were doing many things in the USA. But they publicly aligned with far right Christian platforms and people. (If you’re actually asking, they also harassed a lone transgender person in her place of work on film, which I think also set things back a bit. But that’s just my opinion)

Do you not think my statement above backs up that? If not, care to explain why?

JackyHolyoake · 09/08/2019 19:35

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Cascade220 · 09/08/2019 19:37

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Earlywalker · 09/08/2019 19:37

I understand that perfectly well jacky it was your post that appeared like you were using the terms interchangeably.

Earlywalker · 09/08/2019 19:42

Did Posie (and co) go to the USA to speak at events put on by Christian far right organisations?

Did they also make videos and do ‘activism’ with Christian far right people?

I believe the above confirms that they did. So my statement they publicly aligned with far right Christian platforms and people is therefore factually correct and not hyperbole.

Whether you see their behaviour in the video as harassment or not, is in the eye of the viewer. Given queen Posie can do no wrong, I’m not surprised you don’t. If it was reversed and she was sat there and 3 TRAs came in, I’d imagine you would.

JackyHolyoake · 09/08/2019 19:46

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Cascade220 · 09/08/2019 19:48

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littlbrowndog · 09/08/2019 19:50

Just go ask posie yourself early and the co. Whoever they are

Ffs

Ask posie yourself and then let us know the answer

Cascade220 · 09/08/2019 19:54

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Earlywalker · 09/08/2019 19:57

Posie responded to people questioning her choices of aligning with them by posting a video of her crying Hmm

I didn’t say you were responsible for what Posie did, I said they were individuals, just by them doing it (and by default everyone condoning it) it didn’t help to distance the feminist position from the Christian Right position.

picklemepopcorn · 09/08/2019 19:57

Just popping in to say, I'd admit to being a twerf, if that meant I exclude transwomen from feminism.

But as soon as we get the 'die twerf scum' thing, then we are back to it being a slur.

Earlywalker · 09/08/2019 20:01

And also FWIW, I know posies position ‘the Christian Right are the only people here who will host such discussions’ etc...

Me personally, I would never be willing to drop my core feminist beliefs of the right to abortion, contraception, leaving an abusive marriage as well as my moral beliefs, LGBT rights, the rights for homosexual couples to adopt and marry and so on...

She/they felt differently, that’s their prerogative.

My point was that it didn’t help to stop the ‘terfs are far right christian’ BS.

Cascade220 · 09/08/2019 20:02

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JackyHolyoake · 09/08/2019 20:03

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Cascade220 · 09/08/2019 20:06

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JackyHolyoake · 09/08/2019 20:09

Ha ha! How feeble!

My point was that it didn’t help to stop the ‘terfs are far right christian’ BS.

Maybe you should stop perpetuating such falsehoods, then?