Is the phrase TERF really all that bad (or inaccurate)?

[pressureofaname]

This is something I’ve been thinking about recently and I wondered what views others had.

Obviously TERF is intended as, and is used as, a slur. But if you break it down and apply some critical thinking it seems to me actually helpful to use TERF as the way into an interesting discussion with people who aren’t (yet) gender critical as follows:

The big question is what feminists want to exclude transpeople from. Take the example of a transwoman who retains male genitalia, presents as male, and just woke up this morning and decided they were a woman. Would I exclude that person from a tube train? A dinner party? My place of employment? Absolutely not.

Would I exclude them from the female changing room in Topshop? Probably, yes.

Then you need to think about what “trans” means. Is there a distinction in the Topshop changing room example between people who have lived as trans for years and have a GRC and people who present as male and self-id’d that morning? Potentially so.

So yes, I am trans exclusionary in some circumstances, but by no means in all.

I do realise that this sort of critical thinking is going to be lost on the unthinking TWAW believers, but I think it might be worth a go with those who are not yet a lost cause, and it certainly makes me feel less offended about the term TERF.

During the discussion of ‘TERFs’ not being feminists and that some TRAs think feminists are being funded by the far right, I said that posies trip to America didnt help.

I don’t care what she does. I hate the thought that strong woman would ever give up their core values and beliefs to fight for a common result, when the reason for fighting isn’t even the same.

That hurts me. Because as a woman, as someone who’s fought against anti-abortionists and fought for better awareness around abusive relationships - I hate the idea of those woman there being sold out by any ‘feminist’

Couldn’t care less about Posie, although the fact she still gets airtime here is strange.

Jean Hatchett on the other hand is great - jeanhatchet.blogspot.com/2019/01/why-i-wont-be-standing-for-women.html?m=1

Do you see what you do? We do. We are familiar with your distortions, EarlyWalker.

I suggest you stop harassing me and putting this at the end of all my quotes. It is uncalled for.

If you have anything intelligent to say, say it, but doing this is harassment and your mind games are getting old.

During the discussion of ‘TERFs’ not being feminists and that some TRAs think feminists are being funded by the far right, I said that posies trip to America didn't help.

Then maybe avoid any attempt to perpetuate such a myth?

Are you a mother? If yes, are you so devoid of empathy for those USA Mums who told their stories, in the only place that would give them a voice, about their distress about what is happening to their children?

Early, I agree with the Christian Right that prostitution and pornography are demeaning and harmful.

I have done since the late eighties.

I have had people such as yourself tell me, since the late eighties, that this means I must myself be Christian and right wing, and that I have betrayed any left wing or feminist principles I have as a result of agreeing with them.

Sometimes in life, disparate groups arrive at a similar answer through different means, or have similar concerns that they share, but ultimately choose to address through different means.

Purity politics is a zero sum game. Nobody gets out alive.

Jacky read Jeans article, it wasn’t just that meeting by any means.

I don’t agree much with Jean on a lot of things trans related but I admire her so much for not selling out and having the balls to say ‘no, actually, I’m not aligning with these far right people despite being here with you in Washington’.

have had people such as yourself tell me, since the late eighties, that this means I must myself be Christian and right wing

I think you’ve misinterpreted my position. I’ve not said Posie or anyone is Christian right-wing. I don’t think she is (well not for the USA reason)

I think that mixing the waters between feminist reasons for being GC and Christian Right views for being GC is a dangerous game and any ‘feminist’ movement should move with organisations that are so anti-feminist, careless of weather you want the same end result.

I think it gave ammo for connecting feminists to Christian Right organisations and therefore gave reason to ignore feminists.

I suggest you stop harassing me and putting this at the end of all my quotes. It is uncalled for.

I am putting it at the end of all my comments. [Hint: the world does not revolve around you.]

As I am here: Do you see what you do? We do. We are familiar with your distortions, EarlyWalker.

I'm not sure what all this usa stuff has to do with me as a uk woman who is sadly not funded by evil anti abortion types.

Are we supposed to reel in horror at the idea that wolf (a fairly niche american group) got some money from drones other American group, and that a couple of uk women apparently met some right wing types?
Confused.

Anyone who thinks Julia is a right wing anti women religious zealot or whatever is being very very silly. Very silly indeed.
Posie has never described herself as a feminist afaik, she is a different ball game.

Both are people and can do as they see fit. I'm not in the business of excommunicating people, even if there was something to excommunicate them from.

Is this the best you can do?
Uk women on here: this is a load of shit
Riposte: a USA group that is feminist or says they are accepted money from some other us people who aren't feminist an unspecified amount of time ago for an unspecified reason! Gaha got you! Also, posie Julia bastards, huh, what you got to say to that? Plus nernernener etc etc

And .. the facts about WoLF are here:

womensliberationfront.org/statement-on-malicious-rumors/

I get tired of repeating this but it seems it is necessary:

Speaking just for me it isn’t accurate. I don’t exclude transmen aka women from anything. And I don’t know if I quite count as a Radical feminist.

I’m quite happy to say I’m a TWEF though.

Posie has never described herself as a feminist afaik, she is a different ball game

Her website definitely says ‘woman. Mother. Feminist. Wife’ (something like that) when I went looking for the video.

Is that the best you can do
I don’t know what you think I’m trying to do? I said that it didn’t help to remove feminists from alt right groups. Someone asked me to explain exactly what they did in America, so I did, I didn’t realise it would hit such a nerve!

If you think that posies trip to America, didn’t hinder the GC movement for feminists in anyway or enhance the narrative feminists are funded by the alt right, then great for you!

If you think that posies trip to America, didn’t hinder the GC movement for feminists in anyway or enhance the narrative feminists are funded by the alt right, then great for you!

Could you be specific in the ways that the trip to USA by Julia, Posie and Venice had such an adverse effect?

Please explain in detail. Thank you.

I didn't know there was a gc 'movement'.

I also didn't know posie described herself as a feminist lol

I don't see the jaunt to the usa of some women, nor the acceptance of money for some reason at some point by a usa group, 'hindering' much tbh.

The beauty of gc ideas is they are common bloidy sense. Can a person change their sex literally, by saying they are the opposite sex? No? Congratsc you're gc. Should rapists with functional dicks be locked in womens prisons? Should dicky people compete against cunty people in sport? Should penis people get funding and prizes created for women in areas where women are underrepresented? No to any of these and congrats you're gc. No evangelist cash required. Hallelujah!

Where do you think the accusations of funding and alliances by and with conservative Christian alt right groups came from jacky?

If you say something enough, it sticks. And all those potential GC allies who previously might have listened, or organisations who may have hosted you may be swayed. It gave TRAs ammo - suddenly they had ‘dirt’ on the GC scene.

I have no alliances either way, makes no difference to me.

Funny you say that Fraggling I’ve said no to all of those questions on MN so by your list I finally feel accepted as GC!

I think that mixing the waters between feminist reasons for being GC and Christian Right views for being GC is a dangerous game and any ‘feminist’ movement should move with organisations that are so anti-feminist, careless of weather you want the same end result

I understand your position very well, early, as I said, I am familiar with it because I’ve been hearing variations of it for nigh on thirty years.

I reject it because I’m a pragmatist, a realist, a deal maker. Change is achieved through negotiation, through compromise, through finding common ground, through groups coming together and saying “I don’t agree with you about x, y and z, but we all believe in a, b and c, so let’s go hell for leather together on those and see what we can achieve”.

Your mileage may vary, but really I think you’ll find that the really dangerous game is purity politics.

I respect your position.

To me personally it’s the basis of the fight that changes it, I would understand working with them on pornography, prostitution, surrogacy etc but Trans people are humans, not an action and as much as I understand the need to keep woman’s spaces free, I don’t think my conscience would allow me to work with organisations who want to strip them of all rights, refuse them the right to adopt, get married, have discrimination laws etc.