Is the phrase TERF really all that bad (or inaccurate)?

[pressureofaname]

This is something I’ve been thinking about recently and I wondered what views others had.

Obviously TERF is intended as, and is used as, a slur. But if you break it down and apply some critical thinking it seems to me actually helpful to use TERF as the way into an interesting discussion with people who aren’t (yet) gender critical as follows:

The big question is what feminists want to exclude transpeople from. Take the example of a transwoman who retains male genitalia, presents as male, and just woke up this morning and decided they were a woman. Would I exclude that person from a tube train? A dinner party? My place of employment? Absolutely not.

Would I exclude them from the female changing room in Topshop? Probably, yes.

Then you need to think about what “trans” means. Is there a distinction in the Topshop changing room example between people who have lived as trans for years and have a GRC and people who present as male and self-id’d that morning? Potentially so.

So yes, I am trans exclusionary in some circumstances, but by no means in all.

I do realise that this sort of critical thinking is going to be lost on the unthinking TWAW believers, but I think it might be worth a go with those who are not yet a lost cause, and it certainly makes me feel less offended about the term TERF.

Equality act ✅
Are you UK based? ✅
Man? ✅
Everyone ignore ✅

Some things never change OP has posting history as a GC woman.

OP, I didn’t understand why terf was regarded as so insulting either.

But many GC people reject it because it implies they are ‘trans exclusionary’ whereas they would like to be known as against the ideology rather than the people and say they support trans men.

It’s also been used by the other side as an insult and they see it as a way for opposers to hide their ‘hate for woman’ by dressing it up as a hate for ‘terfs’

PERF (Penis excluding rad fem) was doing the rounds for a while. Never caught on particularly to my knowledge.

The annoying thing about "TERF" to me is that it's thrown out towards people who neither "exclude trans" people (from whatever it is, usually female spaces, to which transmen are welcome) or are "radical feminists".

It's almost always an inaccurate description of a person who disagrees with TWAW or says something about castrating children being bad. Followed by a torrent of misogynistic abuse such as rape threats.

I really can't accept it as "just" a descriptor. It's a term of abuse.

And ... maybe we can all disregard this thread as vexatious.

Really sorry you think that Jackie - I am not meaning to be vexatious and am very much gender critical myself, I just thought it was an interesting question. I don’t need anyone to agree though if they don’t want to!

If it sets your mind at rest I was absent reading one of the other threads on this board for a bit and am in England btw (SW London right now to be precise!). I was a bit surprised to come back and be considered vexatious but I understand this board is vulnerable to that sort of attack.

It's both bad and inaccurate.

How about MEH (Male exclusionary harridans)

As I said earlier, the UK Parliament via its Women & Equalities Committee has ascertained that, in UK, the acronym "TERF" is a slur against women.

Women in UK law are defined as" females of any age".

So. all UK women can dismiss this thread and avoid it since it has no relevance to any| UK women. [Recommended that UK women treat this thread as vexatious for their own wellbeing.]

There are two really interesting (to me) things that people have said above - that the implication of the T in terf is exclusion of trans men as well as trans women and that it implies everyone who is GC is a rad fem and I can see how those two points actually could be quite offensive.

The big question is what feminists want to exclude transpeople from

I can't speak for feminists but for myself I want to exclude XY trans people from all situations where women are vulnerable due to being in a state of undress, a state of unconsciousness or where any kind of physical contact is involved, from women's statistics, women's sports and any programme set up to redress areas where women have been historically disadvantaged.

I also want to exclude XX trans people from all reverse situations regarding men.

In short I want sex not 'gender identity' to be the deciding factor in these areas.

I mentioned the Equality Act because it is relevant to the OP, the acronym 'TERF' and the idea that it is wrong to exclude on the basis of sex.

Earlywalker why is that not relevant?

Jackie I’m not really sure where you’re going with this “women and equalities committee point” - I said in my OP that I know that TERF is intended as and used as a slur.

I am more interested in the underlying words which I think was probably clear to most people on the thread, hence some of the (I think) interesting discussion and points other people have raised.

Apologies merry I wasn’t referring to your post.

As I said earlier, the UK Parliament via its Women & Equalities Committee has ascertained that, in UK, the acronym "TERF" is a slur against women

Is that true? Do you have a link for this? I had no idea it had been defined as a slur against woman by parliament so that’s interesting too.

There was a thread here the other day asking lurkers to identify themselves and I didn’t post but it made me think I should stop being a rather lazy lurker and start contributing to the discussion. Maybe I should have picked a different topic but I honestly don’t think what I have said above is deserving of a warning to disregard.

I am now going to bed lest anyone takes my absence over the next 9 hours to be evidence that I am a troll

I think it's one of those words slung at people they see as guilty of wrongthink - feminazi is another one. Can't say I care. I've had threats of harm thrown at me on Twitter (over abortion opinions) so someone calling me a TERF doesn't concern me in the slightest.

But that's speaking for myself and I'm not visible online really - I can't speak for people like the fantastic Boodleoops on Twitter who deals with this stuff daily.

I cannot fathom why any woman would have made that OP? It seems very awry to me. Perhaps the OP is not a UK citizen and therefore not subject to UK law?

In which legal jurisdiction do you live OP, please?

The post makes sense to me. On the other hand I don't know what point you are making.

I went from “Meh” to “Oh, piss off” at the sight of dozens of “TERFs out of Lewisham” stickers plastered along the high road. I have the same thoughts as the OP (as someone who usually doesn’t contribute much/anything to the Feminism board on here).

On the other hand I don't know what point you are making.

The point is that if the OP is invested in UK politics which affect women [in UK law this is defined as a female of any age] the OP will already be fully aware of the business activity of the Women's and Equalities Committee in UK Parliament and will already be aware of its position on the use of the slur against women that is "TERF".

Of course it’s inaccurate- the fact that it’s seen as radical to suggest that maybe a women’s refuge should remain female only for example is an example of that.

It is a great piece of propaganda- by including radical in the acronym it’s outright saying that these ideas are as radical as communism, Mens Rights Activism or some other extreme ideology.

Where it falls down of course is when people who are absolutely not feminists are labelled as TERFs just for having a bit of common sense. People who don’t hold traditionally feminist views (I’m thinking Caroline Farrow, Piers Morgan) being called anything that includes the term Radical Feminist is laughable.

'Terf' is useful in that any man who uses it, and insists it's 'just an acronym', instantly outs himself as a misogynist who knows nothing about feminism.

I don't think the OP meant to be vexatious, but perhaps didn't realise that anything that might have been worth discussing re 'TERF' has been done to death, so maybe not such a great topic for a 'critical thinking' exercise?

It's bad and inaccurate.
It's used as an insult to shut down arguments against women who don't centre trans people in their feminism (which is different from excluding) and is often used against people who aren't feminists at all.

It's also elitist - people who aren't caught up in these discussions have no idea what it means.

if the OP is invested in UK politics which affect women [in UK law this is defined as a female of any age] the OP will already be fully aware of the business activity of the Women's and Equalities Committee in UK Parliament and will already be aware of its position on the use of the slur against women that is "TERF

Again, do you have the link for that jacky? I don’t think it’s fair to berate the OPs knowledge on politics as I’ve just spent 10 mins looking for this online and not found anything. Not saying terf shouldn’t be a slur, I wouldn’t use it as I know people don’t like it. Just want to make sure that facts remain facts as I know previously, there’s been a bit of confusion about what constitutes a fact.

Thepointis that if the OP is invested in UK politics which affect women [in UK law this is defined as a female of any age] the OP will already be fully aware of the business activity of the Women's and Equalities Committee in UK Parliament and will already be aware of its position on the use of the slur against women that is "TERF".

I don't think that was the OP's point at all, although that is what you wanted it to be.

You come across as really quite arrogant with demands that the OP tell you which jurisdiction she is in and telling posters to ignore a "vexatious" thread.

Is that true? Do you have a link for this? I had no idea it had been defined as a slur against woman by parliament so that’s interesting too

Let's help you out here, Early, since you seem somewhat behind the curve:

All Party Parliamentary Group Report on Hate Crime: It [TERF} can easily be argued that this constitutes hate speech under Criminal Justice Act, which people have been succesfully prosecuted for.

bit.ly/2ZIOYmg

Twitter's Katy Minshull agreed at parliament's Joint Committee on Human Rights, a select committee, that TERF is a slur:

techcrunch.com/2019/05/01/twitter-grilled-on-policy-approach-that-reinforces-misogyny/?guccounter=1

The Standards Committe for Scotland also agreed that TERF is a slur when it suspended Gregory Murray for using it:

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/892784/watchdog-finds-dundee-councillor-breached-code-of-conduct-with-offensive-tweets/

Judge Woollard agreed that TERF is a slur in the case CPS brought against Miranda Yardley on behalf of person who hates her name appearing on MN.

Is that belt and braces enough for you?

I’ve just spent 10 mins looking for this online

Ten seconds advanced search on here would have done you, m'dear. We didn't miss it.

Yeah I think it was when twitter exec was called up in front of the women’s and equality committee to answer for something or other
The twitter exec was asked about using the word terf and did they agree it was a slur.

Twitter exec who was a woman said yeah it was a slur

Nice Lang