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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm not sure I'm not a bigot

222 replies

wdywac · 02/08/2019 07:01

I have never started a thread on here before; forgive me if I ramble.

I am a mother, a scientist, and a rhetorician. I'd like to consider myself fair and open-minded; liberal and progressive. But try as I might, I cannot resolve the issues around trans rights and self-ID. I'd like to hear perspectives from anyone. If you consider that I am a bigot, or not, please explain why.

The debate is so vicious in places that it is hard to find reasoned arguments that don't descend into name-calling and baseless accusations. This is a good place to come, and I have 'lurked' for a long time. I would like to point out that I am for equal rights for trans people in employment, housing etc. However, I cannot accept that trans people ARE the sex they identify as. Am I a bigot?

To start with, I was told that sex is immutable but gender is not; that masculinity and femininity are performed, and this was a fairly sound argument. However, it then became a problem as masculinity and femininity became replaced with the words man and woman. This opened an etymological can of worms because this is not how these words have ever been used. I uderstand that language is fluid, fine, but this is the start of the confusion. Later, these words were again blurred, and so male and female became performed. I cannot agree with this; sex is determined by physical markers. It cannot be performed; this is illogical. I've been told that makes me a bigot because I won't use the riht pronouns, which isn't true. I call people what they asked to be called. I know there are some who disagree with this stance, but it isn't fallacious on in individual level so I do it. In practice I genuinely find it very difficult to do; difficult to remember to do. Difficult to practise when said person isn't in front of me. Am I a bigot?

I'm often thrown arguments like 'what about....?' Trans women in sport, I fundamentally disagree with people segregating sports by gender not sex. Testosterone infers lifelong advantages from gestation. Transwomen have a distinct sporting advantage, even with reduced testosterone. I think the fair way is to have an open sex category, either as a third classification, or to replace the male classification. While I sympathise, this is where I would place Caster Semenya. Am I a bigot?

I think many services restricted on the basis of sex should remain so. Despite popular belief, this is not illegal. So female changing can be just that. Female prisons can be just that. I feel for trans prisoners but this is so open to abuse that allowing self ID to determine acces to services is in thsi case dangerous. I am asked how I'd police it, like demanding a genital exam at the door. I don't have a fully formed answer. Any policing essentially must function on an honour system. Intersex people; I do't have an answer. 'I don't know ' is a legitimate scientific standpoint. Am I a bigot?

I don't agree with issuing birth certificates in a 'new' sex is a good idea. If sex is immutable, it is simply documenting a falsehood. GRC already does this, but changes ones gender, not sex. Reissuing birth certificates can allow past identities to be 'forgotten' and means that crimes ca be categorised as committed by femakes when they are not. Am I a bigot?

I don't like the terms real women , cis women, true women. They are loaded. In the same way that we call mothers mothers, whether they gave birth to or adopted their children. We don't say real mothers, at least not in polite conversation. But there are times when it is important to distinguish betwee the two groups, and so we have terms to differentiate them. To say that differentiation is not required, or to simply state that transwomen are women, is intellectually dishonest. There are many instances where biological femaleness is very necessary. It needs protecting. Am I a bigot?

I do not see trans people as less; I do see them as different to being of the biological sex they identify as. I don't think they should be treated differently, except where biological sex matters. Remove sex-based protections demonstrably does harm females. Am I a bigot?

Sorry for long post.

OP posts:
sanluca · 02/08/2019 07:06

No

truthisarevolutionaryact · 02/08/2019 07:10

No - just a wise adult human female.

HeyDuggeesCakeBadge · 02/08/2019 07:12

No of course not.

SophoclesTheFox · 02/08/2019 07:25

All seems thoughtful and sensitive to me, so I’m going with: no, you’re not a bigot. It’s a great word for people to Chuck at you willy-nilly when they can’t actually fault your reasoning though, isn’t it?

Juells · 02/08/2019 07:33

How does one become a rhetorician? Are there many opportunities for a fulfilling career?

AskMeAboutBoswell · 02/08/2019 07:38

You are not a bigot. Nor am I. Humans can't change sex, ever.

AnyOldPrion · 02/08/2019 07:42

To be a bigot, your beliefs have to be unreasonable, as well as strongly held, and generally there’s also an implication you use those beliefs to back prejudicial views against people.

If your views are rational and backed up by scientific thought or statistical evidence (e.g. A knowledge of sexed offending patterns) then you aren’t a bigot.

Ironically, I think many transactivists do fit that profile, which is why when you try to discuss your rational views, it usually results in them namecalling or using other insults.

VictoriaBun · 02/08/2019 07:44

I can't answer your questions except to reply that I agree with a lot of your thoughts on the subject.
Around 10 years ago I worked in a male prison. Back then if a trans person came in, they would be housed on the hospital wing for their own safety.
A hospital wing ( at least back then, and in the one I worked in) was more relaxed, single cell , housed prisoners that were very elderly, those that had additional needs, such as wheelchair/ or walking aids. Some would have MH issues, or perhaps vulnerability , or in the case of trans, the thought of the possibility of them being vulnerable to being attacked either violently or sexually. Back then it was explained to them why it was in their best interest to go to Healthcare ( as it was called ) They always took that advice and agreed to be housed there.

Yeahnahyeah · 02/08/2019 07:44

Of course you are not a bigot . But why the need to defend yourself

Bespin · 02/08/2019 07:45

no your not a bigot for thinking that, you become a bigot when you start posting personalised attacks on individual people and targeting them on your Facebook page. so if you are not planing to do that like some people do then you will be fine.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly · 02/08/2019 07:46

Bigot - a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions

sounds like you are not intolerant of genderists, you just understand that humans can't change sex

you're fine

MangoSplit · 02/08/2019 07:47

I agree with you OP. It makes me feel sad because I think of myself as a tolerant, open minded person and, like you, I worry that I am not being fair to trans people. But I just can't reconcile myself to the examples you mention above.

Juells · 02/08/2019 07:53

Hmmmmmm nobody ever wants to admit to being a bigot. I suspect that I have become one, and that the whole fight for trans 'rights' and the impact it's had on women's sex-based rights has also altered my attitude to gay men because of their lack of support for lesbians.

ProfessionalBullshitter · 02/08/2019 08:00

Everything you say is completely reasonable and correct.

FormerMediocreMale · 02/08/2019 08:26

I think everythong you have written is perfectly reasonable.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 02/08/2019 09:02

No, you are not a bigot.

A bigot is intolerant of those who hold different opinions or beliefs. You have stated you support the right of trans identifying people to housing, employment etc. Trans ideology is a belief. You tolerate that belief. You are not required to share it to not be a bigot.

If trans identifying people and other followers of the trans faith fail to accept your lack of belief, and fail to allow you to live your life in accordance with your lack of belief it is they not you who are bigots.

angelwithalariat · 02/08/2019 09:50

I became GC when I looked more closely at some of the accusations of transphobia that were flying around. There's people who want to round trans people up and put them in camps, or at least have a legal right not to live next door to them. There's people who think transition is a completely invalid choice that nobody should do. And there's people who don't agree with every detail of the TRA agenda. And apparently they're all transphobic bigots. It seemed obvious to me that the first group are transphobic; the last group are not, and there's a big. big problem with a political outlook that insists on conflating the two.

But the people in the middle, it's more difficult. Certainly you hear some very sweeping negative statements and also a sort of visceral physical disgust. Is this bigotry?

It worries me a bit as my own position has hardened over time. I was very sure that the problem wasn't trans people but perverts pretending to be trans. The problem was people misusing self-id. There were good trans and bad trans. I now don't think that position makes sense. There isn't a way of legally defining out the perverts. Legally, sex has to mean biological sex.

RoyalCorgi · 02/08/2019 09:54

I'm not a bigot either. But it no longer bothers me if I'm called one. Bigot, transphobe, Terf - all those are just terms of abuse hurled at women by misogynists and their handmaidens. They use abuse because they know full well they haven't got a coherent argument.

Women who think for themselves have always been called witches, hags, harridans, bitches and so on. This is just more of the same.

angelwithalariat · 02/08/2019 10:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ArnoldWhatshisknickers · 02/08/2019 10:28

There's people who think transition is a completely invalid choice that nobody should do

But the people in the middle, it's more difficult. Certainly you hear some very sweeping negative statements and also a sort of visceral physical disgust. Is this bigotry?

You would have to define exactly what you mean by transition but I could be said to fall into this group in that I am opposed to surgical interventions for mental health issues.

To be clear, I am not opposed to people dressing how they like, choosing any name they like, living in a way they presume to reflect the sexist stereotypes imposed on the opposite sex if they like. I do have a problem with surgery, even in adults.

I have a problem with it because there is little to suggest it is effective on a population level. John Hopkins University Hospital closed down their original transsexual programme back in the 70s because it did not improve the lives of a large enough percentage of patients to warrant the risks. Suicidal ideation, and actual suicide, does not decrease with surgical intervention. Complication rates are high. Surgical treatments for mental illness have a very dubious history, see lobotomies, eugenics. Surgery is not properly regulated, especially in the USA and many surgeons are frankly cowboys with little care or regard for their patients.

My opposition to surgery is not restricted to trans issues either. I have serious concerns about cosmetic surgery more generally. I am also aware that my own bad experience of minor, non-cosmetic surgery colours my views, I almost lost my leg/life to a surgical infection following a biopsy. Surgery should not, ever be taken lightly.

As for visceral physical disgust, well of course many people will feel that. If you mutilate your body people will feel revulsion. What do you expect? The same occurs when people have huge numbers of piercings, or brandings, or facial tattoos. More sadly it occurs when people have disfigurements through no fault of their own. Why would trans identifying individuals not cause the same reaction? Surely it is up to their doctors, supporters and advocates to explain that to them before any transition.

Butters83 · 02/08/2019 10:29

angelwithalariat Yes - that makes you a bigot. And your post will probably be deleted.

angelwithalariat · 02/08/2019 10:30

I would say yes, yes it is. And I think a lot of you would agree with me, and will also insist that this is not what GC people believe. But it is what some of us, explicitly, believe, and it does form part of the atmosphere in which we have this debate.

yulet · 02/08/2019 10:30

Well, what do you think @angelwithalariat?

OP, the majority of the Twitter, Reddit and Tumblr crowds online would call anything except unquestioning acceptance "bigotry". So to some people, yes you definitely are. To most posters here on Mumsnet meanwhile, no you aren't.

To 99% of people in every day life, this wouldn't even be considered something up for debate or thought. They can't believe this stuff is really happening.

WrathofSWhittIeKlop · 02/08/2019 10:35

I don't know anyone who would call themselves a bigot.

It's an insult that is aimed at someone else.
It reflects badly on the person saying it imo.

Doyoumind · 02/08/2019 10:35

TRAs, Stonewall etc will label you a bigot for those views. That doesn't mean you capitulate. You just need to fight against it.