Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm not sure I'm not a bigot

222 replies

wdywac · 02/08/2019 07:01

I have never started a thread on here before; forgive me if I ramble.

I am a mother, a scientist, and a rhetorician. I'd like to consider myself fair and open-minded; liberal and progressive. But try as I might, I cannot resolve the issues around trans rights and self-ID. I'd like to hear perspectives from anyone. If you consider that I am a bigot, or not, please explain why.

The debate is so vicious in places that it is hard to find reasoned arguments that don't descend into name-calling and baseless accusations. This is a good place to come, and I have 'lurked' for a long time. I would like to point out that I am for equal rights for trans people in employment, housing etc. However, I cannot accept that trans people ARE the sex they identify as. Am I a bigot?

To start with, I was told that sex is immutable but gender is not; that masculinity and femininity are performed, and this was a fairly sound argument. However, it then became a problem as masculinity and femininity became replaced with the words man and woman. This opened an etymological can of worms because this is not how these words have ever been used. I uderstand that language is fluid, fine, but this is the start of the confusion. Later, these words were again blurred, and so male and female became performed. I cannot agree with this; sex is determined by physical markers. It cannot be performed; this is illogical. I've been told that makes me a bigot because I won't use the riht pronouns, which isn't true. I call people what they asked to be called. I know there are some who disagree with this stance, but it isn't fallacious on in individual level so I do it. In practice I genuinely find it very difficult to do; difficult to remember to do. Difficult to practise when said person isn't in front of me. Am I a bigot?

I'm often thrown arguments like 'what about....?' Trans women in sport, I fundamentally disagree with people segregating sports by gender not sex. Testosterone infers lifelong advantages from gestation. Transwomen have a distinct sporting advantage, even with reduced testosterone. I think the fair way is to have an open sex category, either as a third classification, or to replace the male classification. While I sympathise, this is where I would place Caster Semenya. Am I a bigot?

I think many services restricted on the basis of sex should remain so. Despite popular belief, this is not illegal. So female changing can be just that. Female prisons can be just that. I feel for trans prisoners but this is so open to abuse that allowing self ID to determine acces to services is in thsi case dangerous. I am asked how I'd police it, like demanding a genital exam at the door. I don't have a fully formed answer. Any policing essentially must function on an honour system. Intersex people; I do't have an answer. 'I don't know ' is a legitimate scientific standpoint. Am I a bigot?

I don't agree with issuing birth certificates in a 'new' sex is a good idea. If sex is immutable, it is simply documenting a falsehood. GRC already does this, but changes ones gender, not sex. Reissuing birth certificates can allow past identities to be 'forgotten' and means that crimes ca be categorised as committed by femakes when they are not. Am I a bigot?

I don't like the terms real women , cis women, true women. They are loaded. In the same way that we call mothers mothers, whether they gave birth to or adopted their children. We don't say real mothers, at least not in polite conversation. But there are times when it is important to distinguish betwee the two groups, and so we have terms to differentiate them. To say that differentiation is not required, or to simply state that transwomen are women, is intellectually dishonest. There are many instances where biological femaleness is very necessary. It needs protecting. Am I a bigot?

I do not see trans people as less; I do see them as different to being of the biological sex they identify as. I don't think they should be treated differently, except where biological sex matters. Remove sex-based protections demonstrably does harm females. Am I a bigot?

Sorry for long post.

OP posts:
RosesAndRaindrops · 05/08/2019 17:21

And another thing, before you go off muttering darkly about evil Mumsnet and the people who populate it, you should know that this isn't some mad corner of the internet where the minority happen to gather. This is just one of the only places where we can speak openly and freely and give honest opinions

I'm not "going off muttering darkly."
I didn't say it was all like that here, did I?
As it's not.
Undercurrent. It's good to be able to speak openly here, as you say it's one place can have open discussion.
It's the undercurrent once you see that's disturbing.

bettybeans · 05/08/2019 17:25

An undercurrent of simmering female anger? That's disturbing to you?

yulet · 05/08/2019 17:25

Nah. If you see bigotry, report it. State what the problem is. Saying that something is there but "difficult to see" is just nonsense.

Either something is there or it isn't and when you can't define the problem, it makes me think you know really there isn't one, or just virtue signalling to look clever.

You know - "There's a monster in the room! Ooh but you have to be as good and clever as me to see it! If you can't see it then you're one of the bad guys! If you don't know then I can't tell you!"

RosesAndRaindrops · 05/08/2019 17:34

Nah. If you see bigotry, report it.

I do.
The outright stuff gets taken down, usually.

An undercurrent of simmering female anger? That's disturbing to you?

Why would female anger be disturbing? Confused
Women can be angry.

JessicaWakefieldSV · 05/08/2019 17:37

It's the undercurrent once you see that's disturbing.

Oh the irony ( psst it’s you! )

bettybeans · 05/08/2019 17:37

Well what undercurrent are you referring to?

RosesAndRaindrops · 05/08/2019 17:39

Oh the irony ( psst it’s you!

Lol, if you say so.
That's just (one) part of the problem right there.
Anyone with a differing opinion painted as a disturbing abuser.

Juells · 05/08/2019 18:34

I'm slightly in awe.

Throw out mysterious accusation about 'undercurrent', intended to make everyone second guess themselves.
Another poster says 'it's you'
You don't miss a beat and come back with Anyone with a differing opinion painted as a disturbing abuser.

So when you talk about an undercurrent, what you actually meant was that other posters were disturbing abusers? Have I got that right?

Juells · 05/08/2019 18:35

DARVO

JessicaWakefieldSV · 05/08/2019 18:36

So when you talk about an undercurrent, what you actually meant was that other posters were disturbing abusers? Have I got that right?

That’s about it, yeah. It’s ok, authentic users are well used to the goady poster above who likes to throw out all kinds of insults and then acts surprised when it’s not appreciated. It’s kind of amusing but also sad that’s how they get their kicks.

JackyHolyoake · 05/08/2019 18:42

The undercurrent here is Women's Rights which is what this section of Mumsnet is labelled, as in:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights

UK law provides legal rights to women [defined in law as a female of any age] to safety, privacy, dignity, wellbeing and fairness via the relevant Exceptions written in the Equality Act 2010.

It is these legal rights for women that form the most part of any discussions in this section of Mumsnet [which is subtitled as Feminism Chat].

RosesAndRaindrops · 05/08/2019 18:46

Why ask a question if you don't want anyone to answer it?
Maybe it was one of those rhetorical ones that you're supposed to ignore Confused

SophoclesTheFox · 05/08/2019 18:47

Undercurrents? Ah yes.

Oh, it’s not what you said, it’s how you said it.

I know what you’re really thinking.

If you don’t know what you did, I can’t tell you.

Everyone else can see it, why can’t you?

Designed to wrongfoot, to undermine, to suggest we’re just not very nice.

I spend a lot of time questioning if I’m right about this, as it goes. I could have my mind changed, as I have done on other important topics, but the arguments on the other side are just so poor, so manipulative, so unscientific, and so deeply, deeply, sexist that I just can’t imagine how it would happen.

Juells · 05/08/2019 18:50

The goalposts are whizzing all over the place.

TheInebriati · 05/08/2019 18:57

Talking of bigotry, does anyone know the outcome of the threats made against the women meeting in Hastings?
The police said it was a credible threat, there was a stash found which may or may not be related, and that was the last I heard.

www.feministcurrent.com/2018/06/20/whats-current-police-investigating-bomb-threat-womans-place-meeting/

RosesAndRaindrops · 05/08/2019 18:59

Everyone else can see it, why can’t you?

I didn't say everyone else can see it at all, I said the opposite!
In that it's really hard to see at first (if at all)
So how that equates me to saying everyone can see it is anyone's guess Confused

OldCrone · 05/08/2019 19:03

What is it we're supposed to see, Roses?

SophoclesTheFox · 05/08/2019 19:13

Must take a special talent to perceive this undercurrent, then.

And you ignore the rest of the post. It’s a masterclass in slippery debating. Honestly sort of impressive!

RosesAndRaindrops · 05/08/2019 19:46

And you ignore the rest of the post.

I answered the OP's question.
Then saw the one asking a question and answered it.
Turns out it's one of those that isn't supposed to be answered at all though (so why ask?) Confused

SophoclesTheFox · 05/08/2019 19:52

Right you are, Rosie, if it’s all asked and answered, or contained in an undercurrent, there’s no more to be said, I suppose.

Have a fab evening now Smile

RuffleCrow · 05/08/2019 19:58

Why would you even think of yourself as a bigot? You know in your heart your views are logical and reasonable. MRAs wear lippy sometimes nowadays. Doesn't make the systematic dismantling of our sex based rights any less outrageous.

RosesAndRaindrops · 05/08/2019 20:15

Right you are, Rosie, if it’s all asked and answered, or contained in an undercurrent, there’s no more to be said, I suppose. Have a fab evening now

Agree, have said all there is to say on that. Won't say anymore on it (unless anyone asks me another question about it)
which I hope they don't, as you say it's all been said.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page