Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm not sure I'm not a bigot

222 replies

wdywac · 02/08/2019 07:01

I have never started a thread on here before; forgive me if I ramble.

I am a mother, a scientist, and a rhetorician. I'd like to consider myself fair and open-minded; liberal and progressive. But try as I might, I cannot resolve the issues around trans rights and self-ID. I'd like to hear perspectives from anyone. If you consider that I am a bigot, or not, please explain why.

The debate is so vicious in places that it is hard to find reasoned arguments that don't descend into name-calling and baseless accusations. This is a good place to come, and I have 'lurked' for a long time. I would like to point out that I am for equal rights for trans people in employment, housing etc. However, I cannot accept that trans people ARE the sex they identify as. Am I a bigot?

To start with, I was told that sex is immutable but gender is not; that masculinity and femininity are performed, and this was a fairly sound argument. However, it then became a problem as masculinity and femininity became replaced with the words man and woman. This opened an etymological can of worms because this is not how these words have ever been used. I uderstand that language is fluid, fine, but this is the start of the confusion. Later, these words were again blurred, and so male and female became performed. I cannot agree with this; sex is determined by physical markers. It cannot be performed; this is illogical. I've been told that makes me a bigot because I won't use the riht pronouns, which isn't true. I call people what they asked to be called. I know there are some who disagree with this stance, but it isn't fallacious on in individual level so I do it. In practice I genuinely find it very difficult to do; difficult to remember to do. Difficult to practise when said person isn't in front of me. Am I a bigot?

I'm often thrown arguments like 'what about....?' Trans women in sport, I fundamentally disagree with people segregating sports by gender not sex. Testosterone infers lifelong advantages from gestation. Transwomen have a distinct sporting advantage, even with reduced testosterone. I think the fair way is to have an open sex category, either as a third classification, or to replace the male classification. While I sympathise, this is where I would place Caster Semenya. Am I a bigot?

I think many services restricted on the basis of sex should remain so. Despite popular belief, this is not illegal. So female changing can be just that. Female prisons can be just that. I feel for trans prisoners but this is so open to abuse that allowing self ID to determine acces to services is in thsi case dangerous. I am asked how I'd police it, like demanding a genital exam at the door. I don't have a fully formed answer. Any policing essentially must function on an honour system. Intersex people; I do't have an answer. 'I don't know ' is a legitimate scientific standpoint. Am I a bigot?

I don't agree with issuing birth certificates in a 'new' sex is a good idea. If sex is immutable, it is simply documenting a falsehood. GRC already does this, but changes ones gender, not sex. Reissuing birth certificates can allow past identities to be 'forgotten' and means that crimes ca be categorised as committed by femakes when they are not. Am I a bigot?

I don't like the terms real women , cis women, true women. They are loaded. In the same way that we call mothers mothers, whether they gave birth to or adopted their children. We don't say real mothers, at least not in polite conversation. But there are times when it is important to distinguish betwee the two groups, and so we have terms to differentiate them. To say that differentiation is not required, or to simply state that transwomen are women, is intellectually dishonest. There are many instances where biological femaleness is very necessary. It needs protecting. Am I a bigot?

I do not see trans people as less; I do see them as different to being of the biological sex they identify as. I don't think they should be treated differently, except where biological sex matters. Remove sex-based protections demonstrably does harm females. Am I a bigot?

Sorry for long post.

OP posts:
ScrimshawTheSecond · 03/08/2019 09:51

Hear, hear, Red.

The thing is, Robin, this is a space where women feel freer to say what they think. Things women would discuss in single sex spaces, but those seem to be becoming an increasingly rare thing now.

TheTitOfTheIceberg · 03/08/2019 10:34

Utterly brilliant post Red.

FamilyOfAliens · 03/08/2019 10:36

Yet another family member making a video to validate their dad’s “transitioning” and gush about how amazing it’s been for the family.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-northern-ireland-49170496/transgender-reacting-to-my-dad-s-transition

TinselAngel · 03/08/2019 10:49

I don't really want to watch that. It's a shame she doesn't see her Mum as a role model. Sad

Datun · 03/08/2019 10:52

Women wanting single sex spaces really isn’t an extreme view, Robin.

It doesn’t make us ‘unpleasant’.

It's uncanny, isn't it.

Men commit 99% of all sex crime and 90% of all violent crime. I don't want them around me when I've got my knickers round my ankles, or where my teenage daughter is taking off all her clothes, nor my elderly mother is trying on underwear. If I deliberately seek out a woman only gym session, there is a bloody good reason for that. I don't want them there either, obviously.

That makes us unpleasant, extreme and disrespectful.

But it's us who is similar to the patriarchy???

If I were you, Robin, I would hand back your rhetoric diploma.

FamilyOfAliens · 03/08/2019 10:59

I didn’t want to watch it either, tinsel, if I’m honest.

It’s a shame also that her brother didn’t make the video and that, as always, it’s fallen to a woman to show the world that nothing’s wrong, everyone’s super happy and everything is fab and great and amazing.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 03/08/2019 11:02

Powerful post Red thank you

Fairenuff · 03/08/2019 11:23

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

JanesKettle · 03/08/2019 14:11

Love your post Red

HermioneWeasley · 03/08/2019 14:19

Applause for Red 💐

FormerMediocreMale · 03/08/2019 14:26

Red Flowers brilliant.

Transwomen are NOT women and should shut up saying they are. We're all getting a bit tired of this gaslighting now.

I agree entirely.

HermioneWeasley · 03/08/2019 14:29

I am LOLing at the idea that trans people are hyper aware of who passes or not. One glance at the hashtag “girlslikeus” will show that’s not the case.

TheTitOfTheIceberg · 03/08/2019 16:54

If #girlslikeus is meant to be for TW who are convinced they pass, there is some serious cognitive dissonance going on. Putting side for a moment my day to day rage at the trampling of women's rights by TRA extremists, that thread actually made me very sad; so many people who will never be more than a poor facsimile of what they think they can become.

learieonthewildmoor · 03/08/2019 17:27

This seems to have become Robin’s thread, not OP’s.
I was baffled by Robin’s comment about women wanting to exclude transwomen being patriarchal.
Men have excluded women from education, work and society to keep us in a subordinate position. When women seek out women only places, we do so in the knowledge that we do not have equal power in the world. By excluding men we are protecting ourselves.
Robin seems to view that woman-only space as a privilege, a sign of status. By excluding men we are exercising power.
That’s a big difference in world view.

I read a comment somewhere that GC women dress up their transphobia as concern for women’s rights, just as some religious people use spiritual concerns as a cover for homophobia; or anti-safe-and-legal abortion proponents use women’s health. I thought that was a very telling dismissal - women’s rights, pfft.

ScrimshawTheSecond · 03/08/2019 18:45

people who will never be more than a poor facsimile of what they think they can become.

Yes, I have a lot of sympathy for Robin and others who feel compelled or unhappy with their lot in life. It must be very hard, and I hope they can find some peace and acceptance in themselves.

Datun · 03/08/2019 20:01

I was baffled by Robin’s comment about women wanting to exclude transwomen being patriarchal.
Men have excluded women from education, work and society to keep us in a subordinate position. When women seek out women only places, we do so in the knowledge that we do not have equal power in the world. By excluding men we are protecting ourselves.

Robin has absolutely no clue about this. This is not Robin's culture, history or experience.

Robin is looking at women through a male gaze. They can't not. They want to purloin what they see through their own lens.

What they see through their own lens is not the reality. And all women can see that.

wdywac · 03/08/2019 22:31

I don't now think I am a bigot, but I think I will be labelled as such, and whilst the effect is the same, I fear there is little I can do about it. From a rhetorical standpoint, many of these arguments pass only on pathos - it is not possible to judge as ethically sound an argument that puts the rights of one oppressed group above those of another, without reason. It is also not logical. Saying that someone who identifies as a woman is a woman is petitio principii. Saying 'give me an example of when x has happened' is shifting the burden of proof. 'All the women I spoke to said..' is argumentum ad populum. So many arguments riddled with logical fallacies mean that none of this can be rhetorically sound. Not that there aren't logical problems on both sides - in the arguments I myself made in the original post, I could be accused of retrospective determinism, but I don't think that's as problematic as the logical problems brought about by saying that transwomen are women, not as a subset of women, but the same. I'm trying to stick to the logic of the arguments to get it straightin my own mind. It is almost that I want to accept this, but can't get the inherent problems to disappear. I have no authority nor expertise to propose a solution, but surely we must all agree that there are problems to be solved, and we cannot currently solve them. Until we can, I will be called a bigot or a transphobe, who wears this mantle with sadness.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 03/08/2019 23:08

Well, you used much rhetorical verbiage to say it, but you're far from the only person on this board to not relish this situation and wish that progressive people had not decided to dump their brains in favour of emotionally manipulative claptrap, and that a sensible solution to a small practical issue could be found which did not impinge on women's rights.

No one is happy about having to take the stands we do here. Frankly I'd much rather be writing, or playing with some interesting machinery with my kids, but while certain men think that a woman saying no in any boundary situation is the start of negotiation, or evidence that she needs to be educated, then I'm rather compelled to continue to stand.

LangCleg · 03/08/2019 23:25

Imperious entitlement is a difficult drug to kick. I find it best not to provide a fix.

MinnieTheSphinx · 03/08/2019 23:40

If you're not already a bigot it's only a matter of time if you continue to be a member of this place.

JanesKettle · 03/08/2019 23:42

Nobody here wears the (incorrect) mantle of 'transphobe' with happiness.

WrathofSWhittIeKIop · 03/08/2019 23:53

In the Times today.
Jazz Jennings is mentioned in the Teen Power List 2019.
Jazz is rewarded for being the world's best known trans teenager.

WrathofSWhittIeKIop · 03/08/2019 23:54

Sorry wrong thread

FloralBunting · 03/08/2019 23:55

Yes, do stick around everyone. Nothing like becoming really aware of how important women's rights are and being called a bigot for it to clarify why the radicalisation portal of Mumsnet is so unpopular with misogynists that they can't resist telling you not to stay...Smile

FormerMediocreMale · 04/08/2019 00:00

Minnie as you are a MNer yourself, how long have you been a bigot?

The word bigot really has become inconsequential if by joining mumsnet you become one.