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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm not sure I'm not a bigot

222 replies

wdywac · 02/08/2019 07:01

I have never started a thread on here before; forgive me if I ramble.

I am a mother, a scientist, and a rhetorician. I'd like to consider myself fair and open-minded; liberal and progressive. But try as I might, I cannot resolve the issues around trans rights and self-ID. I'd like to hear perspectives from anyone. If you consider that I am a bigot, or not, please explain why.

The debate is so vicious in places that it is hard to find reasoned arguments that don't descend into name-calling and baseless accusations. This is a good place to come, and I have 'lurked' for a long time. I would like to point out that I am for equal rights for trans people in employment, housing etc. However, I cannot accept that trans people ARE the sex they identify as. Am I a bigot?

To start with, I was told that sex is immutable but gender is not; that masculinity and femininity are performed, and this was a fairly sound argument. However, it then became a problem as masculinity and femininity became replaced with the words man and woman. This opened an etymological can of worms because this is not how these words have ever been used. I uderstand that language is fluid, fine, but this is the start of the confusion. Later, these words were again blurred, and so male and female became performed. I cannot agree with this; sex is determined by physical markers. It cannot be performed; this is illogical. I've been told that makes me a bigot because I won't use the riht pronouns, which isn't true. I call people what they asked to be called. I know there are some who disagree with this stance, but it isn't fallacious on in individual level so I do it. In practice I genuinely find it very difficult to do; difficult to remember to do. Difficult to practise when said person isn't in front of me. Am I a bigot?

I'm often thrown arguments like 'what about....?' Trans women in sport, I fundamentally disagree with people segregating sports by gender not sex. Testosterone infers lifelong advantages from gestation. Transwomen have a distinct sporting advantage, even with reduced testosterone. I think the fair way is to have an open sex category, either as a third classification, or to replace the male classification. While I sympathise, this is where I would place Caster Semenya. Am I a bigot?

I think many services restricted on the basis of sex should remain so. Despite popular belief, this is not illegal. So female changing can be just that. Female prisons can be just that. I feel for trans prisoners but this is so open to abuse that allowing self ID to determine acces to services is in thsi case dangerous. I am asked how I'd police it, like demanding a genital exam at the door. I don't have a fully formed answer. Any policing essentially must function on an honour system. Intersex people; I do't have an answer. 'I don't know ' is a legitimate scientific standpoint. Am I a bigot?

I don't agree with issuing birth certificates in a 'new' sex is a good idea. If sex is immutable, it is simply documenting a falsehood. GRC already does this, but changes ones gender, not sex. Reissuing birth certificates can allow past identities to be 'forgotten' and means that crimes ca be categorised as committed by femakes when they are not. Am I a bigot?

I don't like the terms real women , cis women, true women. They are loaded. In the same way that we call mothers mothers, whether they gave birth to or adopted their children. We don't say real mothers, at least not in polite conversation. But there are times when it is important to distinguish betwee the two groups, and so we have terms to differentiate them. To say that differentiation is not required, or to simply state that transwomen are women, is intellectually dishonest. There are many instances where biological femaleness is very necessary. It needs protecting. Am I a bigot?

I do not see trans people as less; I do see them as different to being of the biological sex they identify as. I don't think they should be treated differently, except where biological sex matters. Remove sex-based protections demonstrably does harm females. Am I a bigot?

Sorry for long post.

OP posts:
Datun · 04/08/2019 00:06

OP, none of the arguments pass muster.

TRAs didn't want that knowledge broadcast, hence #NoDebate, shouts of burn it down every time women met in public buildings, threats, masked men with dogs, bomb threats, rape threats and general intimidation.

If you ever engage, the bottom line will be you're just being mean. The only argument they have is shut up and be nice. Budge up women, understand your socialisation please, and do what we say, otherwise you'll hurt our feelings/we'll kill ourselves/we'll call you mean.

Take note. If you understand the different types of arguments, you'll see that none of them hold water. Not one.

And that's why, it will fail, ultimately.

RedToothBrush · 04/08/2019 08:46

If the truth is powerful enough it will stand alone.

You can be accused of all manner of things but if the evidence doesn't ultimately back it up, people will see through it in time. Though it may be with a struggle.

That's how the civil rights movement gained its successes. Not through threats and intimidation. But through the dignity and courage against threats and intimidation.

Don't underestimate the visuals of being accused of being a bigot by people who are covered with masks and shouting at a bunch of people standing or sitting still.

SophoclesTheFox · 04/08/2019 09:01

Nicely illustrated OP’s point there, Minnie, you noodle Grin

How did you immunise yourself against becoming a bigot by hanging round here, I wonder?

Juells · 04/08/2019 09:29

MinnieTheSphinx
If you're not already a bigot it's only a matter of time if you continue to be a member of this place.

Not true. What I learned from 'this place' was how to identify and put into words the upset I was feeling about womanhood being appropriated by men.

We can't all be rhetoricians, but our feelings are still valid. When dealing with men's huge sense of entitlement, women's inability to express their justified sense that they're being erased is a huge drawback.

'This place' gives us the words to explain what is being done to us. It doesn't change what we know, simply allows us to put it into words that others should be able to understand.

Our reality is being dismantled for the benefit of men's feelings about themselves.

DickKerrLadies · 04/08/2019 09:48

Minnie, are you being intolerant of those who hold different opinions or beliefs?

JessicaWakefieldSV · 04/08/2019 10:10

To be told that women here should be 'self reflective' is insulting, rude, offensive and honestly I can't post my real feelings about it.

^^ this. A Male has come onto this board to explain womanhood and patriarchy to a group of feminists, and been racist as they did so. Grotesque display of entitlement and bullying.

RobinMoiraWhite · 04/08/2019 19:55

Racist?

yulet · 04/08/2019 20:15

Not denying the other stuff there then?

RobinMoiraWhite · 05/08/2019 05:38

Every bit of it. But to call me a racist just shows the quality / nature of discussion here.

Juells · 05/08/2019 07:15

RobinMoiraWhite

the quality / nature of discussion here.

Simply not up to your standard. No makey-uppy words that sound impressive.

30 years ago in my working life I had to deal with a situation where an ethnic minority member of staff was subject to the sort of exclusatory behaviour you suggest. Talking through concerns and identifying them as illusory solved that.

I suspect this is the paragraph that led to the 'racism' comment. You're suggesting that women who don't want men (however they feel in their heads) in women-only spaces are behaving in the same way as racists.

And trust me, we trans women are at least as highly tuned to who passes and who does not than the 'experts' who post on these threads from time to time.

By 'experts' do you mean 'women'? Women whose safety depends on being able to identify who is male, and therefore a threat? Who are hard-wired to be able to do so?

JessicaWakefieldSV · 05/08/2019 10:08

RobinMoiraWhite

As a Polynesian Māori women, using people of colour for your own agenda is repulsive, it is not remotely comparable. Stop being a racist and appropriating our struggle, and I’ll stop calling you a racist. Women setting privacy boundaries around their bodies, is not remotely comparable to actual racism. I was physically assaulted by my own father for my race. People like you who use our experiences to try and gaslight women make me physically sick.

WelshMoth · 05/08/2019 10:16

Yes, Red. Thank you SO much for eloquently writing my thoughts - powerful words.

Robin you are reading our words but you aren't really listening, are you?

yulet · 05/08/2019 12:13

Yes I think its racist to say that "men who want to be women" are identical in their struggles to women of colour.

RedToothBrush · 05/08/2019 13:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LangCleg · 05/08/2019 13:14

we trans women are at least as highly tuned to who passes and who does not than the 'experts' who post on these threads from time to time

LOL. I refer you to the endless studies that establish the female sex has better sex recognition than the male sex.

One would almost think the female sex has an evolved risk assessment mechanism. Can't for the life of me think why that might be. Can you, Robin?

yulet · 05/08/2019 14:44

If I'm remembering right, according to Reddit, passing doesn't necessarily mean convincing, it can just mean 'fuckable'. As in, yes, men would have sex with you.

RosesAndRaindrops · 05/08/2019 16:16

Have RTFT. I don't think you are, OP, no. The reason I say that is because you're questioning your view, you're thinking, reflecting or whatever.
True ones are entrenched, immovable, far from reason, unquestioning, always right even when not.

@MinnieTheSphinx
It's only a matter of time if you continue to be a member of this place

I actually agree with you to an extent there, I don't mean that everyone here will automatically become one, of course not, but the undercurrent of a few posters there's more to it than just self ID concerns and I think that's what you're referring to?
Really not surprised at the (possibly deliberately obtuse, who knows) point whooshing over heads and mis-reading though from some!

TheInebriati · 05/08/2019 16:23

Redefining words isn't going to work, bigot only has one meaning. It has nothing to do with entrenched attitudes, reason, or whether or not you question yourself.

Bigot means ''intolerant towards those holding different opinions.'' There is plenty of bigotry directed ant women, at lesbians, with some really nasty examples this weekend.

GC women say be live and let live, do your own thing, just do no harm to others and leave us alone. Thats not bigotry.

RosesAndRaindrops · 05/08/2019 16:33

Redefining words isn't going to work, bigot only has one meaning

bigot
[ˈbɪɡət]
NOUN
a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

All of this, played out on the board frequently.
This thread being one, see this time it's a poster called Robin getting it.

GC women say be live and let live, do your own thing, just do no harm to others and leave us alone

Fair enough, maybe some do like I said it's definitely not all. There's a lot of middle ground posters, I was referring to the undercurrent entrenched ones.

If you sometimes question yourself, and challenge your thinking every now and again, I don't think that's bigotry.
As you're open to other viewpoints and opinions which is the opposite to bigotry which - definition meaning is intolerant to other views and opinions
Which is what I was getting at in the first place before looking up the dictionary definition, not redefining, just describing.
The definition backs up what I was saying really.
Which is if you're questioning and still "open" then by definition you're not one

RosesAndRaindrops · 05/08/2019 16:45

Nicely illustrated OP’s point there, Minnie, you noodle grin

How did you immunise yourself against becoming a bigot by hanging round here, I wonder?

Obviously not Minnie, but I can answer this one for you - you obviously don't "immunise" yourself, but you have a sudden punch gut (metaphorical!) wake up moment when you realise something's not quite right, not as it seems.
Then you can't really unsee.

yulet · 05/08/2019 17:00

I hugely disagree, it is not intolerant or bigoted to ask questions towards posters like Robin.

If you think that people have been bigoted then please report their posts and get MN to delete and message them to let them know.

The tone might not be as nicey-nice and gushing as you might personally prefer, but firstly, after years of bullshit, a lot of posters here cut to the chase.

Secondly, some facts aren't up for debate - that doesn't make someone close-minded, it's just the nature of reality. For example, you can't magically switch someone's biological chromosomes or reset their lives so they can be socialised differently. How do you propose to make this something we can reconsider?

And thirdly, appeasement just doesn't work. We are where we are right now because so many of us said at first, "Of course you're a woman now, and anyone who thinks they are is one, you're welcome", without thinking through the logical consequences which are coming true all around us. We are losing women's rights. They are vanishing right now. Being quiet and nice isn't working

bettybeans · 05/08/2019 17:08

It's quite incredible. If you don't speak up or raise concerns out of politeness you have transwomen proclaiming to women (on a women's forum) that the women they know are totally cool with having transwomen in their female only spaces. If you do speak up and respond with honesty you're accused of being a mean old bigot. That Robin can't see an issue in that is quite astonishing.

Women will mostly be polite. Not always but generally speaking it's what keeps us safe and more recently, prevents us from being targeted by those who wish to call us bigots and shout us down for saying something considered to be "not all that kind". That you don't know this about women - or choose to ignore it for convenience - speaks volumes. Are there exceptions to that? Vocal women? Goodness, yes. You've met quite a few here and you'll probably end up meeting some in real life too. In some ways the women who lead the charge on this type of inclusion for woke cookies are just as bad, albeit in a different way. They push a choice (which isn't really a choice at all) on to other women. They know. They understand. They do it anyway.

This has really irritated me. Women have so little space of their own, so little opportunity to be with just other women. They're not setting up women only groups or using female only spaces and secretly just waiting to share them.

RosesAndRaindrops · 05/08/2019 17:10

I hugely disagree, it is not intolerant or bigoted to ask questions towards posters like Robin

I never said it was intolerant or bigoted to ask questions.
There's more to it at play than "just asking questions"
As I say, it's hard to see at first.

bettybeans · 05/08/2019 17:14

And another thing, before you go off muttering darkly about evil Mumsnet and the people who populate it, you should know that this isn't some mad corner of the internet where the minority happen to gather. This is just one of the only places where we can speak openly and freely and give honest opinions. Most of the women you'll meet or speak to will be unable to ever give completely honest opinions. It's up to you to decide if you want to be sensitive to and anticipate their needs and feelings, or if you want to assume that silence means agreement or compliance. I know which I think is the more civilised and respectful behaviour.

WelshMoth · 05/08/2019 17:16

yulet couldn't agree more. Good post.