I'm not sure I'm not a bigot

[wdywac]

I have never started a thread on here before; forgive me if I ramble.

I am a mother, a scientist, and a rhetorician. I'd like to consider myself fair and open-minded; liberal and progressive. But try as I might, I cannot resolve the issues around trans rights and self-ID. I'd like to hear perspectives from anyone. If you consider that I am a bigot, or not, please explain why.

The debate is so vicious in places that it is hard to find reasoned arguments that don't descend into name-calling and baseless accusations. This is a good place to come, and I have 'lurked' for a long time. I would like to point out that I am for equal rights for trans people in employment, housing etc. However, I cannot accept that trans people ARE the sex they identify as. Am I a bigot?

To start with, I was told that sex is immutable but gender is not; that masculinity and femininity are performed, and this was a fairly sound argument. However, it then became a problem as masculinity and femininity became replaced with the words man and woman. This opened an etymological can of worms because this is not how these words have ever been used. I uderstand that language is fluid, fine, but this is the start of the confusion. Later, these words were again blurred, and so male and female became performed. I cannot agree with this; sex is determined by physical markers. It cannot be performed; this is illogical. I've been told that makes me a bigot because I won't use the riht pronouns, which isn't true. I call people what they asked to be called. I know there are some who disagree with this stance, but it isn't fallacious on in individual level so I do it. In practice I genuinely find it very difficult to do; difficult to remember to do. Difficult to practise when said person isn't in front of me. Am I a bigot?

I'm often thrown arguments like 'what about....?' Trans women in sport, I fundamentally disagree with people segregating sports by gender not sex. Testosterone infers lifelong advantages from gestation. Transwomen have a distinct sporting advantage, even with reduced testosterone. I think the fair way is to have an open sex category, either as a third classification, or to replace the male classification. While I sympathise, this is where I would place Caster Semenya. Am I a bigot?

I think many services restricted on the basis of sex should remain so. Despite popular belief, this is not illegal. So female changing can be just that. Female prisons can be just that. I feel for trans prisoners but this is so open to abuse that allowing self ID to determine acces to services is in thsi case dangerous. I am asked how I'd police it, like demanding a genital exam at the door. I don't have a fully formed answer. Any policing essentially must function on an honour system. Intersex people; I do't have an answer. 'I don't know ' is a legitimate scientific standpoint. Am I a bigot?

I don't agree with issuing birth certificates in a 'new' sex is a good idea. If sex is immutable, it is simply documenting a falsehood. GRC already does this, but changes ones gender, not sex. Reissuing birth certificates can allow past identities to be 'forgotten' and means that crimes ca be categorised as committed by femakes when they are not. Am I a bigot?

I don't like the terms real women , cis women, true women. They are loaded. In the same way that we call mothers mothers, whether they gave birth to or adopted their children. We don't say real mothers, at least not in polite conversation. But there are times when it is important to distinguish betwee the two groups, and so we have terms to differentiate them. To say that differentiation is not required, or to simply state that transwomen are women, is intellectually dishonest. There are many instances where biological femaleness is very necessary. It needs protecting. Am I a bigot?

I do not see trans people as less; I do see them as different to being of the biological sex they identify as. I don't think they should be treated differently, except where biological sex matters. Remove sex-based protections demonstrably does harm females. Am I a bigot?

Sorry for long post.

You would have to define exactly what you mean by transition but I could be said to fall into this group in that I am opposed to surgical interventions for mental health issues.

I just shudder at the fact that there are doctors who are willing to cut off healthy organs and tissue. And of all things to have operated on, the sexual organs?!?! The most sensitive part of the body?

I suspect my attitude is influenced by a programme I saw years ago about American transexuals who'd gone to Mexico (IIRC) for operations, as they were so desperate. Several of them were going to be in pain for the rest of their lives. I felt so sorry for them, and sorry that they couldn't be helped to come to terms with their bodies, rather than being maimed.

Arnold you make some good points. And clearly it can't be bigoted to have this debate, whatever trans rights activists may think. However, I can see why trans people might describe people who try to block their access to surgery - which they see as hugely life enhancing - as transphobic.

The truth is never unreasonable, thus, can never be bigoted.

bigot
/ˈbɪɡət/
a person who is intolerant towards those holding different opinions.

It's interesting to look at the definition, because it says 'intolerant' towards the people, rather than the opinions. So I suppose it's a form of prejudice.

I disagree with a lot of these opinions or beliefs. I don't think I'm intolerant of the people holding them.

Semantics, though.

'Bigot' seems increasingly to be being used to mean 'disagrees with opinion x'. Perhaps it's shading into 'intolerant of opinion x', rather than intolerant of the person holding it.

To be honest angelwithalariat trans privilege activists will consider me transphobic anyway as I don't share their faith.

To quote that bloke from Vintage Gay Toronto 'I have little care or regard for the opinions of trans activists'.

Mostly because there's no point. To them everything is transphobic, dogs, chocolate, facial recognition software, airport scanner, goths..............

There is no way to not be transphobic in the eyes of the true believers so whatever.

No you are not a bigot.
I agree with everything you said.
It is amazing how free speech has gone out the window ,but only for the normal people out there.

I doubt this place is the right audience to give you a considered answer. Why don't you ask trans people? I wouldn't ask a heterosexual religious community for opinions on the level of my homophobia unless I wasnt really interested in changing.

I dip into the talk section here from time to time in the (usually forelorn) hope of ting folk with whom sensible common cause can be made across the divides in this debate.

So, firstly, congrats to the OP for her post.

My personal life experience is that I am a MtF trans woman, only now alive because transition was available to me. I knew I was trans at least by my teens and lost a beloved career 30 years ago because I was honest with my employer. I am a professional rhetorician, at least in the sense so get paid for it.

Had I been offered transition as a teenager I would have jumped at it. As it is, because of the events mentioned above, I didn’t transition in my 20’s as I might have done but left it to my later 40’s and live a much happier life because of it. I am (I hope) a Responsible, contributing member of society and sit on the Boards of several charities (unrelated to gender matters) and undertake some other unpaid public functions.

It is a constant surprise to me how this debate is conducted by those who use terms such as ‘genderist’, apparently to deny the legitimacy and efficacy of the choices I have made.

We do not ban mobile phones because criminals use them. In the same way, the fact that (a tiny minority) of ostensibly trans-identifying individuals cause problems is not a good reason to deny the rights of trans folk generally. The solutions should focus on the aberrant behaviour, surely?

Extremes of any debate in human affairs are almost certainly likely to be wrong, those on the extreme / absolutist wings of the debate are almost equally certain to come across as buffoons and, yes, bigots.

Better to look for the common ground based on respect rather than retreating to trenches and throw rocks?

Arnold

Surely it is up to their doctors, supporters and advocates to explain that to them before any transition.

Some people seem to have unreal expectations, and not be prepared for the fact that they don't 'pass'. When you think about the counselling people get before a vasectomy... how come patients aren't being warned about the downsides?

Do you remember the programme linked to on here several months ago, about a husband who transitioned? Now his whole family, including teenage children, seems to be involved to an unhealthy degree in the attempt to let him be outside without people being nasty or making hurtful remarks. Much talk of how close they all are, do everything together, 24/7. It was all about protecting the father, though. It seemed to have come as a shock to them that they didn't turn into a hot woman, admired by all, and instead were being insulted and hurt when they went out on their own.

It's no wonder that trans people band together for protection, but that also means that those who are considering transition might not be getting an accurate description of what life will be like afterwards.

I am a professional rhetorician, at least in the sense so get paid for it.

Jeeze, never heard of a rhetorician before today, now we have two of them on one thread

Am I just very iggerent, or had everyone else heard of such a thing before?

Yes Greeve TRAs are noted for their considered debate. Or rather #nodebate. DARVO as ever.

I'm sure the trans people who are members and post here are quite capable of voluntarily giving their opinion on the OP (if they wish) without the need to go begging after them for it.

I have no idea what TRA means nor am I interested. It sounds like the kind of words radicalists use.

Some people seem to have unreal expectations, and not be prepared for the fact that they don't 'pass'. When you think about the counselling people get before a vasectomy... how come patients aren't being warned about the downsides?

This is even more depressing when the patients concerned are children.

I recall reading about Jazz Jennings complaining that boys didn't treat Jazz like the other girls and all the trans advocates blaming all the awful transphobes. That to my mind is cruel. Jazz should have been told all along that Jazz is not, and never will be 'like the other girls' because Jazz is not a girl. Filling a child's head with false ideas is wrong, it sets them up to fail, they will never achieve the promised land.

Had I been offered transition as a teenager I would have jumped at it. As it is, because of the events mentioned above, I didn’t transition in my 20’s as I might have done but left it to my later 40’s and live a much happier life because of it.

This is interesting, and probably means you, too, are a bigot, Robin, according to TRA 'logic'. Do you agree with many of us on here, then, that children should not be 'socially transitioning' or given puberty-blocking medication, but should leave it until much later when they are better able to understand the consequences?

I'd be interested to hear more about why you feel you have been happier due to transitioning later rather than earlier. This is quite contrary to what most TRAs say.

I'd never heard of a 'professional rhetorician', either, Juells, so I googled. Apparently there were a lot of them around in Florence in the 15th century.

academic.oup.com/past/article-abstract/36/1/21/1549272

No idea about the 'modern' ones.

Do you agree with many of us on here, then, that children should not be 'socially transitioning' or given puberty-blocking medication, but should leave it until much later when they are better able to understand the consequences?

What are the consequences? Can they be reversed? Are the same for boys and girls?

What are the consequences of someone who feels uncomfortable in say, a female body, going through puberty and developing breasts?

What are the consequences of someone who feels uncomfortable in say, a female body, going through puberty and developing breasts?

I'd wonder why they felt so uncomfortable about a natural part of becoming an adult. I'd wonder what sort of messages they were receiving from those around them about the place of women in society. I'd want them to have counselling or get psychiatric help, not get the breasts cut off.

I think it is the nuance that is the problem. I think we, as a population, should tackle childhood obesity. Safer walking routes, more outdoor activities at school etc. This does not mean I am going up to fat children and calling them names. The trans debate sees these two opinions and behaviours as equivalent. We've lost this divide between overall issues and taking things personally.

You sound the same as I am. I would be as nice to a trans person as anyone else, but can see issues with basing policy around their subjective, changeable realities instead of an objective reality. However, when people are so emotionally invested they take it so personally.

Can I be a rhetorician when I grow up?

In the same way, the fact that (a tiny minority) of ostensibly trans-identifying individuals cause problems is not a good reason to deny the rights of trans folk generally.

When you talk about 'rights' here , what do you mean?

From everything I've learnt, had I been a teenager now, with the same access to the internet that I had then, I think I'd probably identify as trans.

I still have body image issues, but it's the physical realities of being a woman that helped me overall. I found it harder to hate my breasts when they had the ability to completely sustain a baby - I found it incredible.

Thank fuck nobody was talking about 'top surgery' back then.

Had to look that up:

rhetorician
/rɛtəˈrɪʃ(ə)n/

an expert in formal rhetoric.
    a speaker whose words are primarily intended to impress or persuade.

It’s not bigoted to not accept someone else’s beliefs. It is bigoted to treat people differently because of their beliefs which you don’t seem to want to do. I don’t think that you are a bigot.