I'm not sure I'm not a bigot

[wdywac]

I have never started a thread on here before; forgive me if I ramble.

I am a mother, a scientist, and a rhetorician. I'd like to consider myself fair and open-minded; liberal and progressive. But try as I might, I cannot resolve the issues around trans rights and self-ID. I'd like to hear perspectives from anyone. If you consider that I am a bigot, or not, please explain why.

The debate is so vicious in places that it is hard to find reasoned arguments that don't descend into name-calling and baseless accusations. This is a good place to come, and I have 'lurked' for a long time. I would like to point out that I am for equal rights for trans people in employment, housing etc. However, I cannot accept that trans people ARE the sex they identify as. Am I a bigot?

To start with, I was told that sex is immutable but gender is not; that masculinity and femininity are performed, and this was a fairly sound argument. However, it then became a problem as masculinity and femininity became replaced with the words man and woman. This opened an etymological can of worms because this is not how these words have ever been used. I uderstand that language is fluid, fine, but this is the start of the confusion. Later, these words were again blurred, and so male and female became performed. I cannot agree with this; sex is determined by physical markers. It cannot be performed; this is illogical. I've been told that makes me a bigot because I won't use the riht pronouns, which isn't true. I call people what they asked to be called. I know there are some who disagree with this stance, but it isn't fallacious on in individual level so I do it. In practice I genuinely find it very difficult to do; difficult to remember to do. Difficult to practise when said person isn't in front of me. Am I a bigot?

I'm often thrown arguments like 'what about....?' Trans women in sport, I fundamentally disagree with people segregating sports by gender not sex. Testosterone infers lifelong advantages from gestation. Transwomen have a distinct sporting advantage, even with reduced testosterone. I think the fair way is to have an open sex category, either as a third classification, or to replace the male classification. While I sympathise, this is where I would place Caster Semenya. Am I a bigot?

I think many services restricted on the basis of sex should remain so. Despite popular belief, this is not illegal. So female changing can be just that. Female prisons can be just that. I feel for trans prisoners but this is so open to abuse that allowing self ID to determine acces to services is in thsi case dangerous. I am asked how I'd police it, like demanding a genital exam at the door. I don't have a fully formed answer. Any policing essentially must function on an honour system. Intersex people; I do't have an answer. 'I don't know ' is a legitimate scientific standpoint. Am I a bigot?

I don't agree with issuing birth certificates in a 'new' sex is a good idea. If sex is immutable, it is simply documenting a falsehood. GRC already does this, but changes ones gender, not sex. Reissuing birth certificates can allow past identities to be 'forgotten' and means that crimes ca be categorised as committed by femakes when they are not. Am I a bigot?

I don't like the terms real women , cis women, true women. They are loaded. In the same way that we call mothers mothers, whether they gave birth to or adopted their children. We don't say real mothers, at least not in polite conversation. But there are times when it is important to distinguish betwee the two groups, and so we have terms to differentiate them. To say that differentiation is not required, or to simply state that transwomen are women, is intellectually dishonest. There are many instances where biological femaleness is very necessary. It needs protecting. Am I a bigot?

I do not see trans people as less; I do see them as different to being of the biological sex they identify as. I don't think they should be treated differently, except where biological sex matters. Remove sex-based protections demonstrably does harm females. Am I a bigot?

Sorry for long post.

Do you care AT ALL what actual real-life women have lost and are losing because of this stuff?

I think they've made it abundantly clear that dont care about anyone other than themself.

For someone who is supposed to be able to use words to influence people, i'd say on this thread its been an epic fail for them so far.

And there we have it, women will never be free of the harm of men. They believe it is their right to invade our spaces and demand we make room for them. They will steal our opportunites to achieve anything meant for women only. We are transphobic and bigoted for disagreeing that XY can become XX just because someone arbitrarily deems it so.

But the young trans woman of 22 I met last week, a teen transitioner, could not be detected, and so exclusion of her would fail that test.

So the boys who sexually-assaulted me when I was eight and they were ten or eleven, could then transition in their teens and work at Rape Crisis in adulthood, and I could be discussing my sexual assault with one of my assailants? And you're OK with that possibility? Because I'm really not.

Also Robin, part of wanting a counselor who was born female is that, because my sexual assault happened in childhood, I needed to talk to someone who understood and had been through childhood sexism. Who had been sexually-harassed in school uniform by paedophile adult men, had toys taken from her by her teachers because they were "boy's toys", been called "loud" or "bossy" when asserting herself, etc.

No transwoman, no matter how early their transistion, has been socialised as a girl and treated unfairly from the day of birth as girls are. I needed to talk to someone who shared girlhood with me.

Jessica Yaniv says exactly the same as RobinMoiraWhite about rights to enter women’s spaces.
Now we’ve got creepy perverts turning up, kindness and acceptance and tolerance has come back to bite us in the bum.

I was raised to be kind, to be tolerant. If a transgender person politely asked to join my CWA group I’d feel horrible saying no. But what if they’re too well socialised as male to not start throwing their weight around and expect to be deferred to? What if they’re a creepy pervert?
You’ve got trouble with men who don’t understand women are afraid of them; and trouble with men who don’t care.

kindness and acceptance and tolerance has come back to bite us in the bum

yes. it's why those of us who feel able to be firm about our boundaries, our desire for single sex spaces, need to make our voices heard. you can't reason with Robin. Robin doesn't care how we feel.

we need to get to a place where Robin knows they are not entitled to access women's spaces, where women feel entitled to challenge Robin when Robin tries to encroach

Thanks to everyone for their input. For those who have said I should ask trans people these questions; indeed I have. The response has been mixed to say the least. In an online forum situation, the responses have been in the main negative, ie that I am a bigot. Mostly they have led to my developing my answers as detailed in my post. Lots of directing me to sites like Stonewall or blogs from individual trans people. 'Educate yourself' was quite popular. I did as asked. 'Transwomen are women; end of.' There was a bit of name calling, but not much. In face to face conversations, which took place with far fewer people, there was much more nuance. There were no rhetorically sound answers to my arguments, but nobody was prepared to say I was a bigot, or even transphobic. I do not know if that is what they actually thought.

I say I am a rhetorician- I am trained in the science of classical argument. It is necessary for my rather niche career. Because of this, I am looking for answers to questions that are sound, rather than comfortable. My questioning whether I am a bigot is being unable to reconcile these two positions. I do not think I am a transphobe since I neither hate nor fear trans people. But perhaps I might harbour a bigotry from a standpoint I had not considered. I am grateful for the feedback.

*yes. it's why those of us who feel able to be firm about our boundaries, our desire for single sex spaces, need to make our voices heard. you can't reason with Robin. Robin doesn't care how we feel.

we need to get to a place where Robin knows they are not entitled to access women's spaces, where women feel entitled to challenge Robin when Robin tries to encroach*

Statements based on exclusion, and which state that you know how I think and that my position is invalid.

Spot the parallels with the 'patriarchy' you love to rail against?

Sigh.

Robin - you made quite a big deal upthread of explaining how the women in your potential fitness group were approached individually, & they were all delighted to welcome you & it was all quite lovely.

& had you NOT been welcome, you suggested that you'd not have forced yourself on that group.

Can we refer you to your more recent posts? Are women allowed to say NO to you, or not?

Transition is all about imposing power over others.

Robin thinks they are a woman and are totally accepted by the woman's circles they are in, because no one left and no one voiced an opinion to the contrary.

It took me a long time to voice my unspoken discomfort and describe the psychological harm being told white was black and my own self identity was unimportant. The whole emotional guilt about 'not being a bigot' is exhausting and fucks with your head. You know something isn't right, but you can't express why it's making you uncomfortable especially as you fear others will view you negatively for it.

I note here that Robin comes on this thread to asset their authority over others by saying their opinion is more relevant because they are trans. Their oppression is more valid. And their lived experience more important.

No one else is valid yet everyone else must listen to and respect Robin without challenging. We are not entitled to our own feelings.

I'm a bigot in my own political sphere for a few reasons - firstly, I don't believe transwomen are women (they are transwomen, and deserve the same human rights as any other male person), secondly, I don't think children and teens are well served by a single model (affirmation) and should not be taking blockers, cross sex hormones or be able to access surgery as minors, and lastly, I think the trans rights movement is homophobic.

I will just have to live with that reality that, on the left - my political home - yes those things make me a bigot.

It also makes me a bigot to resent the idea that transwomen feel entitled to female spaces. I am very happy to stand alongside transwomen who 1. recognise they are male, not female and 2. don't express moral entitlement to female spaces.

Personally, I think this issue has been 'won' by people who reify gender already, and the left has moved on (to the right) on this issue. My own opinions haven't changed - I have always thought transmen and transwomen were entitled to freedom from discrimination based on their gender expression in employment, housing, medical care etc. That's no longer enough to qualify as non-bigoted.

I agree with you, so if you’re a bigot, so am I. I don’t think I am though.

the psychological harm being told white was black and my own self identity was unimportant. The whole emotional guilt about 'not being a bigot' is exhausting and fucks with your head.

I guess my self-preservation instincts are very strong, because I immediately recognised and expressed the above when my mentally ill daughter told me she was a man. Which probably makes me worse than a bigot, and an out and out child abuser, according to many. Even worse, I express the same to my son, who tells me he is a girl. Playing with gender is OK; gaslighting your mum to do it is not.

However, every single time I express my own need for sanity to others in professional and other settings, I am accused of the most extreme selfishness, as if mother is simply a function, not a person. And I am sure the same is implied for 'wife', or 'sister', or 'friend'.

My emotional guilt is at a 9/10 most days, and while my 'rainbow' kids are given massive amounts of social support, bigoted mum who actually faciliates all the therapy, all the groups, all the everything - well, she's just a bigot who doesn't understand the science.

Anyone who tells you this entire movement does not reek of misogyny is lying.

Gosh, could the quotes around the word patriarchy more clearly illustrate the blatantly MRA perspective Robin is coming from? Wow.

Such solidarity with women there. Crikey.

Spot the parallels with the 'patriarchy' you love to rail against?

No I don't.

OP, you want trans people to have equal rights and be happy, so not bigoted.

Robin please do not equate female-only spaces to racism.

It is a false and offensive comparison and I’m tired of people making it.

Great post JanesKettle

Especially this part: "as if mother is simply a function, not a person. And I am sure the same is implied for 'wife', or 'sister', or 'friend'."
Really struck a chord, I may be a mother but I'm not an emotion sponge that anyone can just purge their emotional trauma all over, wring out and start again.

Same is implied for 'woman' I'd say.

'Woman' is a function, sex object or mother object (to anyone who wants mothering), idealised/aspirational object (aka a narcissist's mirror), supportive cheerleader object (subset of mother object) etc.

ALittleBitofVitriol

Same is implied for 'woman' I'd say.

'Woman' is a function, sex object or mother object (to anyone who wants mothering), idealised/aspirational object (aka a narcissist's mirror), supportive cheerleader object (subset of mother object) etc.

~
So much this! People can be quite agreeable to women up to the point they insist on their own personhood.

men 'people' always blame the tools when a project goes awry...

I need a like button!

The suggestion that male people who transitioned early enough that their voice doesn't immediately suggest their malesness could therefore be completely entitled to man a women's help line....I can't stop thinking about that, to be honest.

That hadn't occurred to me as a possibility, and the fact that it is a possibility that many people, male and female would defend as perfectly OK, makes it a hundred times less likely I would call such a line. I don't want to speak to a male on that line, regardless of their pitch, and the idea that someone would say 'oh, you can't tell anyway, what does it matter? ' is just....appalling.

There is a cost to societal insistence that males can be females - I think calling 'bigot' is one way in which people are able to avoid thinking about that cost, and either changing things, or at the very least, being honest about the cost they prefer others to pay.

What a shock. The men's rights activist in the thread doesn't believe in the patriarchy.

@RobinMoiraWhite - do I understand that prior to surgery you asked permission to join an all women's exercise class (was there not a mixed sex group available?) and would have gone elsewhere if anyone had objected, but that post surgery you consider that no one has a right to veto your presence?

I also note that you 1. Have not answered the questions about whether you would use a third space were one available and 2. Consider that 'passing' is what is relevant when deciding if the single sex exemption is proportionate.

Jane - I'm sorry. You should not be expected to ignore reality. The lack of respect for you as a mother and a woman is abhorrent.

OP - not a bigot. But you know that.