I'm not sure I'm not a bigot

[wdywac]

I have never started a thread on here before; forgive me if I ramble.

I am a mother, a scientist, and a rhetorician. I'd like to consider myself fair and open-minded; liberal and progressive. But try as I might, I cannot resolve the issues around trans rights and self-ID. I'd like to hear perspectives from anyone. If you consider that I am a bigot, or not, please explain why.

The debate is so vicious in places that it is hard to find reasoned arguments that don't descend into name-calling and baseless accusations. This is a good place to come, and I have 'lurked' for a long time. I would like to point out that I am for equal rights for trans people in employment, housing etc. However, I cannot accept that trans people ARE the sex they identify as. Am I a bigot?

To start with, I was told that sex is immutable but gender is not; that masculinity and femininity are performed, and this was a fairly sound argument. However, it then became a problem as masculinity and femininity became replaced with the words man and woman. This opened an etymological can of worms because this is not how these words have ever been used. I uderstand that language is fluid, fine, but this is the start of the confusion. Later, these words were again blurred, and so male and female became performed. I cannot agree with this; sex is determined by physical markers. It cannot be performed; this is illogical. I've been told that makes me a bigot because I won't use the riht pronouns, which isn't true. I call people what they asked to be called. I know there are some who disagree with this stance, but it isn't fallacious on in individual level so I do it. In practice I genuinely find it very difficult to do; difficult to remember to do. Difficult to practise when said person isn't in front of me. Am I a bigot?

I'm often thrown arguments like 'what about....?' Trans women in sport, I fundamentally disagree with people segregating sports by gender not sex. Testosterone infers lifelong advantages from gestation. Transwomen have a distinct sporting advantage, even with reduced testosterone. I think the fair way is to have an open sex category, either as a third classification, or to replace the male classification. While I sympathise, this is where I would place Caster Semenya. Am I a bigot?

I think many services restricted on the basis of sex should remain so. Despite popular belief, this is not illegal. So female changing can be just that. Female prisons can be just that. I feel for trans prisoners but this is so open to abuse that allowing self ID to determine acces to services is in thsi case dangerous. I am asked how I'd police it, like demanding a genital exam at the door. I don't have a fully formed answer. Any policing essentially must function on an honour system. Intersex people; I do't have an answer. 'I don't know ' is a legitimate scientific standpoint. Am I a bigot?

I don't agree with issuing birth certificates in a 'new' sex is a good idea. If sex is immutable, it is simply documenting a falsehood. GRC already does this, but changes ones gender, not sex. Reissuing birth certificates can allow past identities to be 'forgotten' and means that crimes ca be categorised as committed by femakes when they are not. Am I a bigot?

I don't like the terms real women , cis women, true women. They are loaded. In the same way that we call mothers mothers, whether they gave birth to or adopted their children. We don't say real mothers, at least not in polite conversation. But there are times when it is important to distinguish betwee the two groups, and so we have terms to differentiate them. To say that differentiation is not required, or to simply state that transwomen are women, is intellectually dishonest. There are many instances where biological femaleness is very necessary. It needs protecting. Am I a bigot?

I do not see trans people as less; I do see them as different to being of the biological sex they identify as. I don't think they should be treated differently, except where biological sex matters. Remove sex-based protections demonstrably does harm females. Am I a bigot?

Sorry for long post.

The suggestion that I should now use male change at sports centres or male facilities in my work places or public buildings, which some contributors here would argue for, or the female pronouns which express my transition, is what I mean by denying rights

it;s a person's right to be addressed by the pronouns of their choice? cor, over dramatic much? My rights get trampled on every time I answer the phone then

and it being a fight for males to be allowed to access women's toilets and changing rooms is certainly a new one on me

I've had cause to ask this once already today who goes where they know they're not welcome?

right, not fight

sigh

RobinMoiraWhite

Genuine question.

Would it make any difference if you were aware that your presence at a women's only swim session, made it less likely that women like me, who might use those sessions because of their lack of body confidence, who then no longer attend.

Or that Asian women from conservative backgrounds would no longer be able to attend, and thus lose one of their few opportunities to exercise/mix socially.

Or that your presence at a rape crisis centre would prevent traumatised women who needed help from accessing it.

Obviously these may be hypothetical examples for you, but they will occur in real life. At what point are your rights constrained by the needs of others?

Robin would you be happy to use third spaces that were unisex and allow women to have their own spaces?

I would love to know the answer to FormerMediocreMale's question

PP wasn't kidding about "transphobic chocolate".

Robin I was scared to phone Rape Crisis in case a transwoman answered and I heard a male voice. I remain scared of males in changing rooms because that's where I was sexually-assaulted. Why does your affirmation matter more than my mental health, recovery, and ability to go for a swim without being afraid? Why can't we have some family changing rooms that lock and are unisex so you can change without fear and without making me afraid?

I didn’t transition in my 20’s as I might have done but left it to my later 40’s and live a much happier life because of it.

This is quite common as men can be much too busy in their 20's and 30's getting married to women, and having children.

The questions asked of me in the previous two posts are fair ones, and I will answer from my experience.

Recovery from serious surgery, such as gender confirmation surgery is directly related to personal fitness and I took steps to ensure that I improved my health in a number of respects in the run up to surgery. That involved attending a fitness class. The leader had not had a trans woman in her class before and at my request, approached each member of the class individually to ask them what their position was. I made very clear that I would not attend if anyone attending the class already would be uncomfortable. The responses were universally (1) thanks for being asked, and (2) entirely welcoming. The group later said that meeting a trans woman for the first time was a positive revelation and they looked forward to similar members in the future. I was sent a card by the group at the time of my transition.

I am a member of the women's group in my country village and have had precisely the same reaction.

So, with respect, my small sample of the UK population suggests that the more extreme reactions set out here are not reflected by the vast majority faced with a real trans woman as opposed to the spectres and tiny number of those who pose real harm.

30 years ago in my working life I had to deal with a situation where an ethnic minority member of staff was subject to the sort of exclusatory behaviour you suggest. Talking through concerns and identifying them as illusory solved that.

People are people and we need to find ways to deal with fears, not exclude people because of them,

Or, of course, we can retreat into corners.

The suggestion that I should now use male change at sports centres or male facilities in my work places or public buildings, which some contributors here would argue for, or the female pronouns which express my transition, is what I mean by denying rights.

Those are not rights.

The equality act absolutely recognises that a person can't change sex and there are exemptions. They use a rape crisis centre as an example.

You do not have the right to use single six spaces, if your exclusion is a proportionate means to a legitimate aim.

You might disagree with that, and consider that your access should overcome any means, to provide an aim you don't agree with.

Do you disagree?

OP, you are definitely not a bigot. If you are in this weird alternate universe we find ourselves jn, I must be too...

@RobinMoiraWhite it might be 'a small minority' that doesn't represent you, but unfortunately and outrageously, they're the ones with the platform from which everything from language to the law is being rewritten to effectively erase and rewrite the lived reality of biological women. Or women, as I like to call them.

Surely 3rd spaces is the best way of catering for everyone and excluding no one?

Well I am 100% like you OP and I have been called a bigot by 2 members of my family (siblings) so who knows? And really, who cares at this point. I believe what I know to be true and I will not waste any more time explaining to those who will not accept my point of view. And in this there is no such thing as an opinion, which can vary, there is only a truth which is that sex is immutable and non negotiable and you can have all the feelings you want in your head, but your chromosomes will remain XX or XY (or intersex).

30 years ago in my working life I had to deal with a situation where an ethnic minority member of staff was subject to the sort of exclusatory behaviour you suggest

we don't segregate toilets and changing rooms by ethnicity. We segregate by sex for the privacy and dignity of both sexes and the safety of women. woman from an ethnic minority using women's spaces is IN NO WAY analogous to you, a born male, using women's spaces. so your analogy is actually unbelievably offensive and racist.

I presume you're a member of the WI Robin? So am I

I really value that single sex environment. just once a month, to meet and talk with other women. If a male joined I would shrug my shoulders, grit my teeth and get on with it. it's just a social meeting after all, it's not all women shortlists or a rape crisis centre.

but, bang goes my lovely, peaceful once a month chance to mix just with other women, just for once.

only takes one male to change that

my small sample of the UK population suggests that the more extreme reactions set out here are not reflected by the vast majority faced with a real trans woman as opposed to the spectres and tiny number of those who pose real harm

two further points

1. traumatised women are scared of you when you enter women's spaces. they are not going to confront you. So with equal respect - you don't know what effect if any your presence id having on women in the spaces you use

2. I'm sure you don't mean anyone any harm, but again, with the same respect you've shown us here, and the same respect you show to women whose spaces you use, males look like males look like males. How do we know if you're one of that number who mean us harm?

Is 'exclusatory' a special word that only rhetoricians know about?

So many things to comment on - I apologies to the OP for appearing in her thread but perhaps the dialogue may inform.

BernardBlacksWineIceLolly, I was invited to join my village's women's group, and I am unaware of any mass exodus, and rather more laughing than teeth gritting, so who knows.

The balance of the exclusion suffered by trans individuals from those who feel threatend by their presence is one that society has to work through, just as with women priests or LGBT teaching in schools in particularly ethnicly or religiously strong areas, The answers are not easy.

And yest, as a trans woman, it is might right to access female spaces UNLESS my exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. A legal prociple, as a professional rhetoritician, I am very familiar with. As a late transitioner, with a male-sounding voice, not eploying me in a rape crisis centre, might meet that test. But the young trans woman of 22 I met last week, a teen transitioner, could not be detected, and so exclusion of her would fail that test. And trust me, we trans women are at least as highly tuned to who passes and who does not than the 'experts' who post on these threads from time to time.

Difficult issues, not assisted by believeing in simplistic answers like XX v XY. Practicalities alsways conspire to make such attractively simple approaches insufficient.

And yest, as a trans woman, it is might right to access female spaces UNLESS my exclusion is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

In the same way that any male can do the same?

The balance of the exclusion suffered by trans individuals from those who feel threatend by their presence is one that society has to work through

translation

no more single sex spaces for you, women. Males will go with they like, and you have to pretend to like it, otherwise you're a bigot.

Obviously I know already that's the reasoning of males who wish to access women's spaces for their own gratification, but it's always a little bit shocking to see it written down, isn't it?

only takes one male to change that

I'm sure that something that a lot of male born individuals don't realise.

It utterly changes.

regarding Robin's fellow institute members welcoming Robin, what Robin either doesn't realise or doesn't care about, due to 40 years of male socialisation, is women are socialised to want to please males. it's partly self protection, partly a scramble for the top. if males smile upon you then you get a little bit of their power.

So no to 3rd spaces as transwomen's "rights" are more important than muslim women for example. Being inclusive of ethnic minorities was ok when it didnt impact you eh robin. Although actually by law they are not your rights, even with a GRC you can be excluded .

Yes, can you imagine being the one to dare to say "god no, I'd be terrified"? As another sexual assault victim, I'd just quietly leave and not return. You'd have no idea that you'd shoved me out because most people would be "so polite and welcoming".

I've name changed for this and I'm scared even posting it, but here's a fun example: I can't use the brand new amazing swimming pool in my world-class, sparkling new university gym which looks amazing - because they've only built "gender neutral" shared showers and changing rooms.

I can only imagine this is due to demands from a tiny transgender community (I think a newspaper article said we had fewer than 10 students identified as transgender out of 20,000).

I felt physically terrified just taking a tour of these facilities, and one of the bravest outdoorsy and woke women I know surprised me by saying it was weird and unpleasant to shower in a cubicle surrounded by shouty men, and then have to walk through them to get to a changing cubicle.

So I've never registered. I've also never dared complain. The few other women I've talked to haven't either. I could do with a local, cheap option to exercise, it would help my life immeasurably, but fuck shy women or trauma victims like me.

Simultaneously, single sex toilets are vanishing across campus. I have heard that women's scholarships are open to men who identify as women. There are posters everywhere telling us to ask people their pronouns, and not to ever question anyone in any toilet.

How would you like to "talk through these problems" with me? Do you see how patronising that is?

Do you care AT ALL what actual real-life women have lost and are losing because of this stuff?

And we're not internet fictions, no matter what you might like to imagine - how dare you literally write off our experiences and opinions like that?

So, with respect, my small sample of the UK population suggests that the more extreme reactions set out here are not reflected by the vast majority faced with a real trans woman as opposed to the spectres and tiny number of those who pose real harm.

I find this oddly offensive. As if SRS did not cure you of a tendency to mansplain.

My experience is different. To be honest you sound as if you think that being born male entitles you to minimise my views and concerns.

Robin's female relatives will also feel excluded from that WI group- a group was was set up for women like them.