I'm not sure I'm not a bigot

[wdywac]

I have never started a thread on here before; forgive me if I ramble.

I am a mother, a scientist, and a rhetorician. I'd like to consider myself fair and open-minded; liberal and progressive. But try as I might, I cannot resolve the issues around trans rights and self-ID. I'd like to hear perspectives from anyone. If you consider that I am a bigot, or not, please explain why.

The debate is so vicious in places that it is hard to find reasoned arguments that don't descend into name-calling and baseless accusations. This is a good place to come, and I have 'lurked' for a long time. I would like to point out that I am for equal rights for trans people in employment, housing etc. However, I cannot accept that trans people ARE the sex they identify as. Am I a bigot?

To start with, I was told that sex is immutable but gender is not; that masculinity and femininity are performed, and this was a fairly sound argument. However, it then became a problem as masculinity and femininity became replaced with the words man and woman. This opened an etymological can of worms because this is not how these words have ever been used. I uderstand that language is fluid, fine, but this is the start of the confusion. Later, these words were again blurred, and so male and female became performed. I cannot agree with this; sex is determined by physical markers. It cannot be performed; this is illogical. I've been told that makes me a bigot because I won't use the riht pronouns, which isn't true. I call people what they asked to be called. I know there are some who disagree with this stance, but it isn't fallacious on in individual level so I do it. In practice I genuinely find it very difficult to do; difficult to remember to do. Difficult to practise when said person isn't in front of me. Am I a bigot?

I'm often thrown arguments like 'what about....?' Trans women in sport, I fundamentally disagree with people segregating sports by gender not sex. Testosterone infers lifelong advantages from gestation. Transwomen have a distinct sporting advantage, even with reduced testosterone. I think the fair way is to have an open sex category, either as a third classification, or to replace the male classification. While I sympathise, this is where I would place Caster Semenya. Am I a bigot?

I think many services restricted on the basis of sex should remain so. Despite popular belief, this is not illegal. So female changing can be just that. Female prisons can be just that. I feel for trans prisoners but this is so open to abuse that allowing self ID to determine acces to services is in thsi case dangerous. I am asked how I'd police it, like demanding a genital exam at the door. I don't have a fully formed answer. Any policing essentially must function on an honour system. Intersex people; I do't have an answer. 'I don't know ' is a legitimate scientific standpoint. Am I a bigot?

I don't agree with issuing birth certificates in a 'new' sex is a good idea. If sex is immutable, it is simply documenting a falsehood. GRC already does this, but changes ones gender, not sex. Reissuing birth certificates can allow past identities to be 'forgotten' and means that crimes ca be categorised as committed by femakes when they are not. Am I a bigot?

I don't like the terms real women , cis women, true women. They are loaded. In the same way that we call mothers mothers, whether they gave birth to or adopted their children. We don't say real mothers, at least not in polite conversation. But there are times when it is important to distinguish betwee the two groups, and so we have terms to differentiate them. To say that differentiation is not required, or to simply state that transwomen are women, is intellectually dishonest. There are many instances where biological femaleness is very necessary. It needs protecting. Am I a bigot?

I do not see trans people as less; I do see them as different to being of the biological sex they identify as. I don't think they should be treated differently, except where biological sex matters. Remove sex-based protections demonstrably does harm females. Am I a bigot?

Sorry for long post.

Robin, there's no way that women who purposefully attend a "women's exercise class", ie choose to attend a class without men, want you there. And your presence there will put other women off joining. Why can't you go to a mixed sex class? Why do you have to use it to validate your identity? You have made this "women's exercise class" into a mixed one.
You don't have the rights that you describe, they are just desires. Strong desires are not rights.

Great posts, Janeskettle and alittlebitofvitriol.

Loving those scare quotes around ‘patriarchy’, robin. And no, I don’t see the equivalence between women wanting single sex spaces and the patriarchy, so you’re going to have to try to use those rhetorical skills to catch me up on that one.

I’m also wondering a couple of things about your exercise group.

Firstly, How was the question asked about whether any woman objected? In private, anonymously? Because if it wasn’t, then you must know that it would be very difficult for a woman to object, for the exact reason that this thread is about, which is that would get a person tarred and feathered as a bigot if they did object.

And secondly, what was the reason that you needed to join a female only group? Were there literally no other mixed sex groups? Did validation enter into the equation by any chance?

The recent posts once again demonstrate how this part of the feminist movement is as bad as the things you rail about. I see that I have been criticised for not answering every question (I tried to answer the most significant without dominating the thread) and told what I believe in or care about - as if you know.

Fortunately, the generality of the women's movement doesnt adopt such an unpleasant stance. No doubt the response to this post will be a lot of self-justification and self-vindication but, personally, I think that is sad as actually, I care about respect and progress for ALL. Much more difficult to achieve, I give you, than advancing rights for one group without solving the difficult problems and tensions different legitimate groups give rise to. But then, I care about ALL not a particular extreme view, so I will have to engage with those difficulties whereas those here on the extreme wing have the luxury of occupying a single issue position. Society is more complex than that.

Women wanting single sex spaces really isn’t an extreme view, Robin.

It doesn’t make us ‘unpleasant’.

Feminism isn't about everyone. It's about women. And that's not something we have to apologise for, nor is it a luxury.

But you've already shown your colours so I don't blame you for flouncing now.

It must be an unpleasant shock to come up against women who haven't swallowed the TRA bullshit wholesale, I appreciate that. That doesn't make us unpleasant women, of course. It makes us women who have applied both critical thinking and our not-inconsiderable lived experiences as women to this current threat to women's rights, safety and dignity and are left with a lot of questions about how we preserve those very important things for women while ensuring transwomen's rights are not compromised. Questions that shouting us down as transphobic or bigots or repeating the cult mantra "TWAW" simply don't answer.

Robin, transwomen do not have the right to insert themselves into any space they desire without any real concern - a concern born of true understanding of how women are socialised and of the constraints imposed upon some sections of women (I'm thinking Muslims, rape/abuse victims here) - for the likely impact of your insertion. To think they do and in doing so ignoring or negating those concerns is male privilege in action.

Would you use a third space where one existed, Robin? Or is your use of female spaces driven by the need to feel validated in your performance of femininity?

I agree with greeve and namechange that this probably isn't the forum to ask for an objective view - a bit like going to a church service and taking a poll as to whether god exists

I’d recommend a self-reflective look look at the last few posts, which I just think are sad. No, there is no point continuing a conversation with folk who use words like ‘flounce’, presumably chosen to be deliberately disrespectful. But that’s your choice, not mine.

Other way round I’d say, aridane. It’s more like going to an atheist convention and trying to start a prayer circle. The metaphysical belief in gender identities is the quasi religious side in this debate.

Asking here is not like stepping into a church, its like stepping out of one.

The idea that men can become women is transubstantiation all over again, its cult-think, it's belief over fact, it's the religious group here.

More in sorrow than anger, robin?

Here’s some nuance for you. Rather than assert blanket “rights for all trans people”, a lot of what we do here attempts to draw the distinctions between, for example, those with crippling dysphoria trying to live as best they can, those like David Thomas on another top thread this morning, droolingly excited over “sprouting adolescent breasts” at age sixty, non gender conforming children, autistic or abuse teenage girls trying to make sense of themselves in a porn soaked culture... all trans, all very different. Lots and lots of nuance.

It's very telling when older men identify as women and then take over their spaces, talk over them and tell them to shut up.

I wish we had a term for it. Something entitlement maybe?

I am not the poster who used the term "flounce" but it is standard internet chat terminology to describe the leaving of a thread by someone when the conversation has not gone their way. If you spend any time online you would know that.

Any chance of an answer to the question about third spaces before you go, Robin?

Marking place to read later

I have a feeling that no answer will be forthcoming about third spaces.

It is all about validating an identity, and caring for everyone except those who insist on describing what they see accurately.

emerence
TY

That's the second time this week I've seen comments on the word 'flounce'.

For those people new to MN, or those just monitoring, here is a link to Flouncer's Corner:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/flouncers_corner

Is netiquette still a thing these days?

Extraordinary.

Does Robin know how many unique views this forum has each month. Yet they are right and we are wrong.

Clear evidence perhaps that thinking you are a woman does not necessarily mean you are a woman. On an anonymous forum, poor Robin, who could be anyone - possibly a teenager in their bedroom trying to irritate their mother - sounds like a man.

Weird also that they are convinced they speak for all trans people. Trans people as far as I can see, are if anything a more diverse group than women. Yet the voices heard most often and most loudly are white transwomen of a certain age.

The leader had not had a trans woman in her class before and at my request, approached each member of the class individually to ask them what their position was

Oh right yeah.

"Hello Jane, can I have a private word please? Do you personally have a problem with this poor person attending this class who just wants to feel included? They asked me to personally ask you so if you have a problem with them you need to say so right now"

Always works.

Spot the parallels with the 'patriarchy' you love to rail against?

Um, Robin, you are the patriarchy being railed against.

And if we're doing anecdotes from our little corners of the UK here's mine.

There was a women's book group. It met in a publically funded facility. An XY trans person wished to join and the publically funded facility thought they should be allowed to do so. At first the women agreed, they were kind, they were welcoming. Over time, one by one, the women left. The book group folded.

Now there is a women's book group. It meets in the members' homes and only those invited by the women can join. The XY trans person has not been invited.

Women pushed out of the public sphere. XY trans person still not getting the validation they seek. That is my anecdote which is every bit as relevant as yours.

The older generation of trans women who periodically sweep onto this forum to tell us what's what, all have a very similar tone don't they?

Assuming you’re still reading Robin, why don’t you just answer the question?
Would you use a third space if one were available?
Several people have asked you.

I tried to answer the most significant without dominating the thread

Like hell you did.

I’d recommend a self-reflective look look at the last few posts, which I just think are sad. No, there is no point continuing a conversation with folk who use words like ‘flounce’, presumably chosen to be deliberately disrespectful. But that’s your choice, not mine.

Translation: Educate yourselves.

No, this isn't about people being ignorant.

You have harmed others with your denial of reality at their expense. You may not wish to see this but it needs to be said.

Identity isn't just something for the individual. Identity forms as family units or as groups too.

The family unit one is particularly strong. This means there is a profound effect on others in the family unit if someone transitions, which is being hugely overlooked and disregarded by psychologists and its damaging the mental health of others.

Someone posted on the trans widow thread about how common a breakdown was against close female relatives a couple of weeks ago, and this was based on information that was years and years old.

The lack of space to deal with this, instead being labelled as bigoted is appalling. It is harmful.

And worst still this effect isn't even acknowledged. Its a problem that to all intents and purposes officially does not exist.

And you have the nerve to come here and gaslight, once again saying there is no problem, there are just bigots.

No sorry.

I have had enough of it.

You don't know. Everyone is too busy tripping over themselves to not offend you.

In reality it's the mothers, the wives and the sisters who have to clear up the mess or pick up the pieces. They have to deal with the transitioning self harming child, they have to deal with boxing up all their own problems as they come second, they have to look after bewildered children, deal with the financial fallout, the pitying looks and comments etc.

To be told that women here should be 'self reflective' is insulting, rude, offensive and honestly I can't post my real feelings about it.

You've come on this thread not as an equal as a woman. You've come on to assert you identity as transwoman - unique from women - whilst expecting the same status of woman when it suits you but also to impose your status as transwoman, the oppressed we should pander and bow to, at the same time.

Which only highlights that transwomen are transwomen. They can not be women and are not woman even if everyone chants twaw because there is a basic power imbalance in this dynamic which subjegates women in particular situations.

They become invisible, disregarded and dismissed in their own needs and are expected to suck up the dramas and issues of the trans community at the expense of themselves.

So yes, fuck self reflection. That's the whole emotional blackmail. That's the 'bigot' gaslighting to manipulate. And that's what's causing breakdowns to the invisible.

Well said Red

In reality it's the mothers, the wives and the sisters who have to clear up the mess or pick up the pieces.

Excellent post Red