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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

321 replies

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 14:55

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin Wink

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

OP posts:
HollowTalk · 07/07/2019 15:04

Really interesting - looking forward to reading more.

MangoesAreMyFavourite · 07/07/2019 15:06

Interesting. My friend (not too close) went and I wanted to ask her how she found it first hand. Will be reading with interest - thanks for starting this.

CharlieParley · 07/07/2019 15:22

Thank you for this account. Always good to hear from someone who was there in person. Of course different people will come away with different impressions of an event, and only by adding their impressions together can you get an overall picture.

We had our local Pride yesterday and my husband went along, saying he saw no fetish stuff, just people happily mingling and being out and proud of it.

Friends also went at a slightly different time and a slightly different place and they didn't see what my DH saw, but lots of fetish stuff (and not the stuff you'd want children to see).

Will have to ask whether there was a good mix of male and female people, we didn't talk about that (the fetish stuff was males exclusively).

Loveislandaddict · 07/07/2019 15:29

Didn’t know there was a trans. Flag so just looked it up.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 07/07/2019 15:32

not a blatant place mark at all

oh hang on....

MIdgebabe · 07/07/2019 15:39

Interesting observation about the different vibe from younger and older trans people. Wonder if that is part of what sometime seems to be a generational divide ( in the round) . Thanks.

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 15:45

Okay, the acts on stages. I'm trying to be neutral but it's hard not to think that there is a transgender agenda.

There were drag queens galore. There were plenty of transwomen. I didn't see any transmen. I saw one lady who said she was a lesbian. A gay man. A few who didn't announce their sexuality.

They'd do shout outs to the crowd "be out and proud of who you are!!" type of thing. Calling for a cheer from the l, then g, (miss the b?!), then t, that type of thing. The T got the biggest cheer by far. Hardly any sound when they asked for the intersex people, which I suspect was from supporters rather than intersex people. There was a company giving out plastic glasses free with flags on - looked like most of the intersex flag ones were left over and few people drinking from them. Most popular color by far... well you can guess.

One act went on a rant about the rights of LGBT+ people and that they are still being abused and listed the countries and abuses, that was harrowing to hear. They went on to talk at length about trans people being persecuted here in the uk, and that you are who you say you are, don't let people tell you otherwise. She finished by saying "I have a penis... and I am a woman... but weirdly she trailed off and didn't sound as if she was convinced of that herself! There was only a muted audience cheer for that.

The women's stage I'm afraid I walked out of in protest the end, because all I saw was trans women and drag acts on stage. On the WOMEN'S stage. Again, maybe it was just my bad timing but I didn't see a woman on the women's stage in the half hour I was there. I did however hear lots of declarations from the stage that you're not a real feminist if you don't include all women; a shout out to the gay men, trans women and everybody else (wot no lesbians or bi women worthy of acknowledging at the women's stage?) and lots more you are what you feel affirmations.

The only aggression I witnessed all day was when a trans woman/cross dressing man in a G string bikini and fishnets and standing at nearly 7ft in heels pushed through the middle of a lesbian couple holding hands and shouted MOVE YOU FUCKING DYKES! as they did so.

At 2019. At Pride. In London.

I had hoped to find a gender critical stall, or adult human female t shirt wearer to have a conversation with, to find my way into a local GC scene. Nope, and after I'd heard a few TWAW affirmations I wouldn't have felt safe having that conversation in any case.

My overall impression;

Lesbians have been deplatformed.
Women have been deplatformed.
Gender critical conversation not possible.
Feminism has been deplatformed.
Pride is for the T, the G are welcome and the L and B allowed if they're good. Allies allowed if good allies to T.
TWAW.

OP posts:
Justathinslice · 07/07/2019 15:46

I feel like I'm very open minded, but I don't understand why brown and black was added to the rainbow flag...?
Surely rainbow is meant to signify all colours metaphorically. Like there are no green or purple or blue please....
Am I missing something?

WhentheRabbitsWentWild · 07/07/2019 15:52

Interesting read. Thanks OP

But what is a GC Mumsnetter?

LadyOfTheCanyon · 07/07/2019 15:53

Gender Critical.

NeurotrashWarrior · 07/07/2019 15:54

It wasn't inclusive enough apparently

www.dezeen.com/2018/06/12/daniel-quasar-lgbt-rainbow-flag-inclusive/

Thank you for this account OP.

WhentheRabbitsWentWild · 07/07/2019 15:54

@LadyOfTheCanyon

Thank You .

NeurotrashWarrior · 07/07/2019 15:57

Quite frankly I think the flags should all be grey to symbolise what happens when all the plasticine colours get mixed up as pride has just become a right old mash up and no one quite remembers it's purpose.

NeurotrashWarrior · 07/07/2019 15:57

With glitter in obvs.

Oblomov19 · 07/07/2019 16:02

I'm not at all surprised. Are you? That T is taking over, everything. Trans is the only subject so it seems. Very sad.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 07/07/2019 16:03

a trans woman/cross dressing man in a G string bikini and fishnets and standing at nearly 7ft in heels pushed through the middle of a lesbian couple holding hands and shouted MOVE YOU FUCKING DYKES! as they did so

crikey

thanks for the report OP, really interesting

sunshinesupermum · 07/07/2019 16:04

Thank you for your account TalkingAboutPride

It's basically confirmed what I suspected that trans (people) are taking over from where gays, lesbians and bis once stood. A huge trans wo/man demanding two 'dykes' get out of the way?! FFS. If it has a penis it is not a woman. End of.

DecomposingComposers · 07/07/2019 16:05

I hardly saw many young gay men -

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly

How could you tell what people's sexuality was? My dd went with 3 friends - so 2 women and 2 men. Would you have known by looking at them what their sexualities are?

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 16:10

@MIdgebabe

From my understanding, I think I met three types of transwomen;

  1. older, gender dysphoric people. The one I chatted to was the conservatively dressed one with shy body language I mentioned above. She relaxed as we chatted and was pleasant.

  2. older transwomen who I think are AGP (autogynaephile) rather than gender dysphoric. All were dressed brightly and as outrageously as possible; swimwear, mini dresses with cut outs everywhere, loud make up, massive heels. This included the type of person who stormed through the lesbian couple, and as a group it was these people whose body languages always set my "I don't feel safe near you" radar off. I'm trying to balance the fact that I just haven't met many trans people and I already have a bias from mumsnet and online against AGP people's actions and motivations. I was biased, but I didn't expect to have a visceral response around so many people. I'm fairly unshockable, and it wasn't the fact that they were male bodies in women's clothes. They gave off something quite nasty. A vibe. I didn't talk to any of them. Nor did I get the same vibe from.drag queens or the trans women I saw on stage.

OP posts:
InTheHeatofLisbon · 07/07/2019 16:16

Thank you for posting this thread OP, it's important to have a first person account.

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 16:17

@Justathinslice I think it's fair to say that people of colour are under represented in pride and in e.g. marketing materials for lgbt+ related companies. I'm white so I don't notice my privilege so much on that front. I can't quote anything more specific but it seems perfectly reasonable to me that these groups want more representation and for pride not to be so white-centered (even though, I'm sorry I can't really explain what that means as I'm not sure, I can just see that yes, it could and should do better for people of colour). I'm happy for black and brown to be added to the flag. I'm definitely unhappy about the version with the trans flag colors triangle, because that would prioritise and already dominant group.

OP posts:
Aspley · 07/07/2019 16:21

I would burn every incarnation of the Pride flag if I had the choice. It no longer represents me and has been co-opted by homophobes and bigots who actively hate me because of my sexuality. I would feel safer at a BNP rally than any group under the Pride flag, at least the Right wing know what a lesbian is.

InTheHeatofLisbon · 07/07/2019 16:23

Pride has been hijacked. Along with other high profile former gay rights organisations.

It's really sad. All that hard work, sacrifice and grit being appropriated by people too lazy/incapable to do it for themselves.

Grossly unfair too.

NotTerfNorCis · 07/07/2019 16:23

This makes me feel angry. Aggressive man in female clothing pushing lesbians aside and shouting homophobic abuse... and that's apparently a-okay in male-dominated Pride.

Aspley · 07/07/2019 16:23

@Justathinslice
The brown and black lines were daft enough. The rainbow was supposed to represent everyone already.
More incidious is the new incarnation with the pink/blue trans chevrons pushing into the rainbow. Nothing represents the current sham better.