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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

321 replies

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 14:55

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin Wink

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

OP posts:
Endofthedays · 07/07/2019 19:06

Ironically DD has just turned up and announced she looks even more lesbian than usual.

Yep, gay people, on average never look anything other than heteronormative, not even at Pride!

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 07/07/2019 19:07

*The only aggression I witnessed all day was when a trans woman/cross dressing man in a G string bikini and fishnets and standing at nearly 7ft in heels pushed through the middle of a lesbian couple holding hands and shouted MOVE YOU FUCKING DYKES! as they did so.

At 2019. At Pride. In London.*

This is not new or surprising. Gay men have an appalling track record in being outright hostile to lesbians. This is as true of the gay scene in London as it is of little village pubs which hosted one monthly gay night, usually featuring a downmarket drag queen making jokes about fish. This is why club listings used to (?still do? I haven’t had cause to read them in years!) estimate the % male/female patrons, so that as a lesbian you could make an informed choice about whether it was something you wanted to bother with.

The LGB community, as it used to be, was always heavily dominated by the G. There has always been a difficult undercurrent. Lots of misogyny, lots of racism, lots of biphobia. Lots of judgment about the right way to be LGBwhatever.

DecomposingComposers · 07/07/2019 19:08

thedevondumpling and LonginesPrime

Exactly.

thedevondumpling · 07/07/2019 19:08

90% of the lesbians I was with yesterday didn't dress according to those stereotypes and neither did I, so the OP would have picked us all out as straight. And of course they might be lots with tee shirts with slogans the OP thought identified them as gay/lesbian/trans when in fact they were wearing them to support a sibling/child/friend.

Crazy isn't it.

darkriver19886 · 07/07/2019 19:12

Very unsurprised by the Bi-erasure.

NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 07/07/2019 19:16

PS - I don’t mean to misgender anyone - I am taking a very tame guess that someone clearly male-bodied wearing a G string bikini, fishnets and heels at pride, being gratuitously rude to lesbians is just another nasty old queen. Seen it all before, back when most of the LGBcommunity was pretty hostile to what we then called ‘transgender’ people, when GRCs were just coming in, when self-id gender-is-a-spectrum stuff was very niche and not even on the radar of straight people, never mind the accepted party line in all areas of public and professional life.

Justhadathought · 07/07/2019 19:34

It's like you were judging based on stereotypes

Is this your 'killer' line?

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 19:39

How do you know that you didn't see loads of trans people who did pass?

She might have, but the point she's trying to make is she saw so many who blatantly didn't

And so what if there was a lot who "blatantly didn't?"
This thread's bonkers.
Also very fixated on people knowing what a lesbian looks like and gay men!
Everybody's different.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 19:47

I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Hang on, yep you're right @thedevondumpling - just re-read and definitely said "they don't pass, they just don't."
Collective big generalising lump of all of them. As in "they." Wow

CarolDanvers · 07/07/2019 19:52

Why do people get so angry when you tell the truth these days? Trans people overwhelmingly do not pass. Sorry if that's hurtful but I am really tired of not being allowed to tell the truth about this.

peeblet · 07/07/2019 19:59

I can assure you,you were surrounded by lesbians. we don't all look butch and obvious Hmm

Paddington68 · 07/07/2019 20:00

Not sure where you were OP
I was with some lovely people at the top of Pall Mall.
I know the sexuality of some of the people I was with as I met their partners. I didn't have chance to do a survey. There were 1.5 million people there.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 20:00

Why do people get so angry when you tell the truth these days?

Who's being angry? I'm not Confused
Just saying it's ridiculous to say no trans pass, and even if a lot don't, why does it even matter?

CarolDanvers · 07/07/2019 20:10

It doesn't matter. It's the accusations of "hate" and "transphobia" and often bouts of aggression that that are dished out like smarties if you don't go along with the pretence that I have a problem with.

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 20:27

lol I definitely didn't go everywhere, no, and I did say that different groups could well have been in different places. Nor am I claiming to have done any kind of accurate census Hmm Big loud crowded events isn't my usual cup of tea, and although I'm bi I haven't been to a pride anywhere for years. I can only give an account of what I saw and my interpretations on it, flaws and all. Other people who were there are so very welcome to add their own accounts, as some have done here (thank you). There has been a lot of talk on mumsnet about what is happening at pride events and I thought it would be a useful addition and talking point.

No, sorry I don't think I, you or any of your daughters or my ex girlfriends "look" like anything. But if you're going to tell me I can't possibly make a reasonable guess at other people's sexuality based on a few factors such as what they are out and proudly doing and wearing at Pride, well then I don't intend to waste my time or yours trying to convince you. I thought that was the least interesting part of my post .

OP posts:
BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 07/07/2019 20:32

none of the contrarians talking about the males on the women's stage then?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 07/07/2019 20:35

I thought that was the least interesting part of my post

it was the least significant part OP, the whatabouters here just leapt on it to avoid talking about your second post, which would be much harder for them to address

DecomposingComposers · 07/07/2019 20:39

As another poster said

I think it is hard to take alot of what you say seriously when some of it is so flawed

FloralBunting · 07/07/2019 20:39

Lol @ the usual pro trans shite posters suddenly deciding that stereotypes are completely inaccurate and should never be taken as an indication of anything. The fucking irony.Grin

DecomposingComposers · 07/07/2019 20:43

Lol @ the usual pro trans shite posters suddenly deciding that stereotypes are completely inaccurate and should never be taken as an indication of anything. The fucking irony.grin

And vice versa surely? The irony of posters who usually argue against stereotypes now claiming that they can tell who is a lesbian and who is a gay man based on how they dress?

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 20:50

The irony of posters who usually argue against stereotypes now claiming that they can tell who is a lesbian and who is a gay man based on how they dress?

Yep, I mean WTF lol

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 07/07/2019 20:50

come on Decomposing. this is boring. let's talk about all the males on the women's stage - what do you think about that?

I think it's fucking reprehensible, for the record

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 07/07/2019 20:52

how about the male shouting MOVE YOU FUCKING DYKES! at a pair of women holding hands (better not say they're lesbians, obviously, I mean if they weren't actually having sex, who's to know?)?

I think that's fucking reprehensible, for the record

FloralBunting · 07/07/2019 20:54

The OP wasnt using stereotypes, she said she was referencing openly lesbian or gay people based on T-shirts that made announcements, or public displays of affection like kissing or hand holding. She has also clarified that she's wasn't attempting to scry into the souls of everyone there, she was giving her impressions of the events.

Two women kissing isn't a stereotype of lesbian behaviour, it is lesbian behaviour. But you crack on with your daft little punt at staring at the gnats and swallowing the camels, I'm sure I can't stop you.

Op, thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Love from a woman who looks like a lesbian Wink

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 07/07/2019 20:54

what do you think about someone announcing in public

I have a penis... and I am a woman...

I think they need to be taken for a nice sit down and a chat about biology - what do you think?