I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

[TalkingAboutPride]

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

I imagine they do it in pairs so they can get the fuck out more quickly

Never seen it before...with any cleaners!

But could be...

My (fairly extensive) experience of toilets in gay venues in and around soho is that they are almost never segregated by sex/gender in practice. They are a hub of social activity. They are not somewhere where a lone woman is suddenly vulnerable with a dodgy man in the next cubicle, because the area by the sinks is packed to the rafters with all sorts of everyone. They are not somewhere children go. I don’t think it’s helpful to shoehorn in all toilet issues ever.

very true

certainly in my days of visiting night clubs that didn't advertise them selves as gay venues, if a man came into the ladies toilets, he was either

1. making some hilarious 'joke', and handily intimidating the women in the toilets along the way
2. persuing a woman he was in an argument with, so he could intimidate her

erm....that's it

Yes and with 1 you could say ‘oi Delores - the men’s is next door down!’

I remember the old days when a man in a dress was usually a man in a dress. (Read fast for deletion...)

It’s not ‘anti-trans’ to want to protect FEMALE spaces.

This bears repeating. Trans men are welcome

What happened? Where is this all come from?

Back in the day we used to go to gay clubs. So there would be transvestites (very Lily Savage) who would put on a bit of a diva show and act the complete bitch. When ‘out of character’ they’d be ‘Bill who worked in accounts’ and use the men’s loos. If they got hassle from dodgy/drunk men the women would hustle Bill/Matha di Fabulous into the ladies loo for safety - because back in the old days women policed the loos and men would not be allowed (unless we wanted Martha in there).

So where are here now.

No one is denying that some individuals may loiter in toilets with evil intentions (though this is as likely to be drugs-related as sex/gender related). But most people using a toilet are just there to... use the toilet.
There is, by the way, at least some anecdata suggesting that one consequence of the gendered-toilets obsession is women (as in non-trans women) are getting harassed by straight men for not looking sufficiently feminine to be allowed in the ladies. My teenage DS has also been approached by 'well-meaning' people about which loo he should be using (he is a teenage boy with long hair because he wants to be a rock star).
Also, most places I have ever been in have a fairly small sign on the door announcing that toilets may be cleaned by male or female staff: they don't sound a Man Klaxon if it's the bloke's turn to do the ladies' loo.
And, you know, in quite a few public toilets, particularly in bad weather, a person in a bulky coat and trainers looks like a person - do you think they should be stopped and questioned, intrusively, about whether they are male or female?

A more important issue in general is the lack of public toilet provision for everyone: even more so for those with additional needs. I don't think it helps anyone to carry on with this persistent scaremongering to the effect that there are millions of wicked transwomen out there just waiting for the opportunity to hang about in public loos all day looking for victims.

Do you think all toilets should be mixed sex Reanimated ?

Just curious really, as that seems to be what you’re advocating

I’d they changed the loos to unisex at, say a concert hall, cinema or sports venue the men would soon start whinging when they realise the queues would increase by a million!

ReanimatedSGB

We are not ‘non trans women’, the default is not Male, thank you very much.

WE ARE WOMEN you misogynistic person. We don’t use cis or non-trans. We are women.

Your rambling lies are irritating. Nobody is confused about who looks Male or female, it’s pretty clear almost all of the time. I’ve never got it wrong in my life.

Nobody suggested there are ‘millions of transwomen waiting to pounce’ so stop staying stupid things nobody here has said. THERE ARE MALES EVERYWHERE ASSAULTING FEMALES. We sex segregate for added protection at our most vulnerable. It is frankly sickening that you’re here telling women, 1 in 5 who have been sexually assaulted, that there is nothing to fear with having males in our bathrooms or changing rooms. Sick.

I've been to concerts where male toilets have been occupied by women. Westlife, Take That etc. - I know no taste at all

My take on toilets is that when it's busy I'm not bothered who's there, I feel protected by the crowd. However, I regularly travel back from a distance late at night and stop for a loo break. Somewhere that's very busy in the daytime but empty at midnight. If someone I perceived as male followed me into the loos then I would be terrified and want to be able to take precautions. Like get out and go and tell the security guard. Not sure if I can do that any more without being accused of transphobia. Because while most men are perfectly safe, I perceive men that go into women's spaces where women are alone as a red flag. I am not able to perceive gender identity as distinct from half hearted attempt at disguise.
And other women may have different boundaries to me.

THERE ARE MALES EVERYWHERE ASSAULTING FEMALES.

SGB is well aware of this. I remember in the days of old, when this 'ere were all fields, SGB arguing this exact point vociferously, against MRAs.

Now, because some men want to identify as female, and say they're women - suddenly that's all gone out the window - and somehow - according to SGB - women simply don't need protected female-only spaces for privacy, safety, to protect against voyeurism, assault etc. Now, suddenly women need only care about queues and cleanliness. Strange.

THERE ARE MALES EVERYWHERE ASSAULTING FEMALES

YES AND NOW THEY CAN GET YOU IN A LADIES LOO, REFUGE OR HOSPITAL WARD!!!!!

Why are we shouting?

I WAS JUST WONDERING THE SAME THING

Nobody is confused about who looks Male or female, it’s pretty clear almost all of the time. I’ve never got it wrong in my life.

Out of interest, how are you so sure about this?

Two of my (female, as in, assigned female at birth and continuously identifying as women) exes used to very regularly get sceptical looks when using the ladies’. Probably by women who think they’ve ‘never got it wrong in their life’.

Probably a double take but not mistaken.

Probably a double take but not mistaken.

Yup. There are very clear differences between the sexes beyond just different sexual organs. It’s not hard and it’s just silly to say otherwise.

Mermoose: that's a fairly unsubstantiated story put out by a pressure group focussed on anti-trans scaremongering.

O fucking rly.

scaremongering to the effect that there are millions of wicked transwomen out there just waiting for the opportunity to hang about in public loos all day looking for victims

You clearly don't get it. It is about privacy and dignity, as well as about safety. Self ID means that any one can claim an opposite sex identity if they so identify.

I'm no wallflower, but I instinctively don't want to share toilet or changing spaces with men, and I don't want to have to feel nervous about what I my find each time I enter a public facility.

No one is denying that some individuals may loiter in toilets with evil intentions (though this is as likely to be drugs-related as sex/gender related). But most people using a toilet are just there to... use the toilet

Toilets have featured quite heavily in gay male culture, as places for pick ups; and women on nights out ( & girls in school) have long used toilets as places of retreat and safety.

And due to physiology male and female toilet habits are different.