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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

321 replies

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 14:55

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin Wink

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

OP posts:
BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 07/07/2019 20:56

how surprised are you that there was little response when a shout out to intersex people was done? I'm not surprised at all bearing in mind that intersex people have repeatedly asked that their medical issues not be conflated with sexuality or stereotypes

DecomposingComposers · 07/07/2019 20:57

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly

I'm not sure how to comment - the OP is not exactly reliable as a witness so how much of those reports are as accurate as them not seeing many lesbians or gay men of certain age groups?

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 20:58

I thought that was the least interesting part of my post .

It's the bit they can nitpick at.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 07/07/2019 20:58

so stop commenting decomposing. your insistence on going round and round in circles is more than a little trying.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 21:01

I have a penis... and I am a woman...

I think they need to be taken for a nice sit down and a chat about biology - what do you think?

Transwomen can still have one, it doesn't mean anyone who says transwomen are women are clueless on biology, does it? Biological women don't have them, transwomen still can.
It's not rocket science.
As we do know biology (well I do anyway lol and I'm sure a lot of others do too)

DecomposingComposers · 07/07/2019 21:01

Oh ok then, if you say so

DecomposingComposers · 07/07/2019 21:03

My last comment was to BernardBlacksWineIcelolly btw

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 21:04

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly
so stop commenting decomposing

Sorry but Grin That's you told @DecomposingComposers!
Now who's trying to silence/no platform women with a different opinion?!
(Apologies if I've just assumed your gender lol)

DecomposingComposers · 07/07/2019 21:07

RosesAndRaindrops

It's always the way on here and yes I am a woman (though frequently accused of being a man for daring to have a different opinion) and yep, the irony of feminists telling a woman to shut up isn't lost on me either.

I guess it's not ok when men do it but is completely acceptable when they do it.

FloralBunting · 07/07/2019 21:14

I never fail to be impressed by how clumsily some people can stretch free speech into supporting their magnificent argument of 'ner ner ner ner ner'.

I mean sure, your stellar method of focusing on inane reading of minor points and ignoring everything of substance is well within the bounds of your freedom to post. But you aren't being silenced or told you aren't a woman or whatever if other posters think the wanky nitpicking is fucking pointless.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 21:15

Biology is the only thing that makes a woman, anything else is fantasy. If you're an adult and own or have owned a penis and testicles you're a man.

thedevondumpling · 07/07/2019 21:15

It doesn't matter. It's the accusations of "hate" and "transphobia" and often bouts of aggression that that are dished out like smarties if you don't go along with the pretence that I have a problem with. Like the aggression when you say you can't always know who is and who isn't gay/lesbian/trans.

I can tell who is being aggressive on here and it's not the people laughing at the rubbish the OP is talking. The unfortunate thing is that anything valid is just put out with the rubbish, so when you comment on the absurd comments the other stuff is lost. Is that the fault of the OP or the reader? Well if you want me to read something and take it seriously then think about what you are saying.

If the OP is telling me that she didn't see any young gay men or lesbians at pride and she would of course be able to identify them then I think it is her fault if I don't want to take her seriously on anything else.

FloralBunting · 07/07/2019 21:16

Oh, and 'transwomen' are not women, and women never have penises.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 21:16

I never fail to be impressed by how clumsily some people can stretch free speech into supporting their magnificent argument of 'ner ner ner ner ner'.

Confused

But you aren't being silenced
Decomposers just got told to stop commenting. Why should she? Her opinion is valid too.

XXcstatic · 07/07/2019 21:17

How do you know that you didn't see loads of trans people who did pass

I work in urgent care. We often have trans patients who come in using their chosen gender identity but, of course, when they need to undress, I can tell what their biological sex is. I work in an inner city area with a largish LGBT community.

I have met quite a few trans men who pass and some Far Eastern TWs. I have never, ever met a Caucasian or blackTW who passed. They just don't, because of build etc. I know passing is a huge issue for many trans people, and I take no pleasure in saying this, but it's the truth.

I think it's highly unlikely that there were lots of TW at Pride who were mistaken for non-trans women by the OP.

thedevondumpling · 07/07/2019 21:17

It's the bit they can nitpick at. No it's the bit that is obviously rubbish and if the OP is reporting that as fact then it is reasonable that she becomes an unreliable witness.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 21:19

Like I said, it's the bit they can nitpick at. So you'll nitpick at it. Of course.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 21:20

No it's the bit that is obviously rubbish and if the OP is reporting that as fact then it is reasonable that she becomes an unreliable witness.

Exactly, if you see something that is said like fact when it comes across as utter rubbish are you just supposed to take it as blind truth?
Maybe some believe everything they read as fact without questioning, but I certainly aren't about to!

LonginesPrime · 07/07/2019 21:21

I guess it's not ok when men do it but is completely acceptable when they do it

I was thinking this too - the same people who keep telling trans activists that lesbians are entitled to live how they like are also telling the lesbians to shut up about stereotyping because it's not the key objective of their narrative.

Also, saying it's fine to relying on harmful stereotypes because 'my DD/friend/whoever is a stereotypical lesbian' doesn't mean you're not offending other lesbians.

What I find annoying is all the threads purporting to support lesbians until one of them questions any part of the way they're being represented, and then we're all just stupid handmaidens, regardless of our actual views on gender or anything else.

It's a shit time to be a lesbian, but the fact we're used by everyone else to further their own aims is just making things worse for lesbians, not better.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 21:21

Nitpick, nitpick, nitpick.

FloralBunting · 07/07/2019 21:22

I don't give a fuck, Roses. I didn't tell her to stop posting, but the incessant focus on one minor impression in the OP is tedious and I'm not surprised someone else got bored with it. People can post all they want, unless they get reported for transgressing guidelines. Doesn't mean anyone else has to esteem their opinion, or be nice, or anything. Genuinely couldn't care less, that's why I post here because there are lots of opinions, even the dull shit whining about hive minds blah blah blah.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 21:23

Nitpick, nitpick, nitpick

You say nitpick, I say questioning. I'm not blindly jumping on some "It's all gawn mad" bandwagon without questioning stuff I'm not sure about.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 21:24

Pride sounds awful - corporate, lesbophobic and misogynistic.

We know that lesbians who don't accept that penises can be female are completely unwelcome. Where is the place for women who love women? All their spaces are being stolen from them by men.

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 21:25

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly I'm not at all surprised at the lack of response from intersex.

I was surprised and pissed off at the lack of women on the women's stage.

OP posts:
RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 21:26

Where is the place for women who love women?

They're still welcome at Pride too, I know a couple who regularly go and have a great time

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