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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

321 replies

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 14:55

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin Wink

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

OP posts:
stucknoue · 07/07/2019 21:26

My theory (backed up by my brother and gay friends) is that for most gay people in the U.K. the battle has been won, they have parity in the law, the new battleground is trans rights hence the political message side of pride is concentrating on this.

Alwaysgrey · 07/07/2019 21:28

This makes for interesting reading and it’s only recently hit home (thanks to MN) how bad things are becoming for women. I didn’t realise lesbians have had such a rough time of things. It’s all very deeply concerning that suddenly we’re meant to roll over for trans people. We should all be able to co-exist but the erosion of women’s rights are massively concerning.

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 21:37

@stucknoue

My theory (backed up by my brother and gay friends) is that for most gay people in the U.K. the battle has been won, they have parity in the law, the new battleground is trans rights hence the political message side of pride is concentrating on this.

You could well be right to a degree. I want everybody to be able to live whatever way makes them happy. I don't hate trans people, I want them to be safe, happy and well. All I ask is that the hard won rights of others (in this case, women) aren't erased in the process, and that children aren't put unquestionably through harmful processes and procedures.

OP posts:
ALittleBitofVitriol · 07/07/2019 21:37

Thanks for posting op, interesting to read!

Adding my vote and anecdote that no, TW by and large do not pass. I've met lovely, early transitioning, Asian heritage, slight build and very pretty TW - they passed better than most, but irl we got the uncanny valley effect and at least 3 adults clocked them within minutes of meeting.

Sorry TW, in the spirit of pride- be proud of who you actually are, nothing wrong with being a GNC male!

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 21:38

Women who love women aren't welcome at Pride. There was a massive security effort to prevent a repeat of Get the L Out.

Men's interests are being placed above those of actual lesbians, who Pride is supposed to represent and celebrate.

Mermoose · 07/07/2019 21:41

Sorry TW, in the spirit of pride- be proud of who you actually are, nothing wrong with being a GNC male!

Yes, it's so sad that this isn't what's being celebrated. The whole trans movement looked so progressive before I listened to what was actually being claimed. I thought it was about discarding regressive sexist stereotypes, not reinforcing them.

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 21:43

The repeated affirmations about trans women were very effective at ensuring that gender critical conversation felt way too dangerous to broach.

OP posts:
LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 07/07/2019 21:46

I think the photo (taken from behind so child not identifiable) of a young boy (looked prepubescent) in sky high platform heels, T-shirt to look like a tight dress and huge angel wings made me wonder that the hell was going on. That and the 3 elderly, portly, male ‘babygirls’.

It just wasn’t like this before - back in the day when gay people didn’t have the right to marry and were discriminated against (may be sacked and have no comeback). When a March meant something - it was a protest not bloody Mardi Gras. End of August they will be dusting off their tutus and trotting over to Notting Hill.

Pride? Proud of what? And all the posters on London’s going on about ‘equality’ - hoe exactly? What about woman’s rights?

TurboTeddy · 07/07/2019 21:49

TalkingAboutPride

Thanks for taking the time to share your impressions and experience of the day with us.

Mermoose · 07/07/2019 21:50

TalkingAboutPride The repeated affirmations about trans women were very effective at ensuring that gender critical conversation felt way too dangerous to broach. In the end, it's this strategy of trying to steamroll over other people that will wake people up. I started out very TWAW. But because I wanted to understand trans people better, I took the time to listen to interviews and read articles and watch Youtube videos by trans people - it was always transwomen, funnily enough, they were the ones getting into papers and things. And very quickly I noticed this attitude of 'Don't you dare question me' from a lot of them. Not all, but most. It's a warning bell. It's certainly what made me think I had to go and listen to the other side.

terfsandwich · 07/07/2019 21:51

The black and brown version of the flag does the opposite of what it claims to do. A bit like trans ideology, supposedly rejecting stereotypes when it actually reinforces them.
Having a POC version says that the default is white. All default things only represent white people unless they make it clear that visibly POC are included. I think that's racist. And it harms multiculturalism. It divides us.
It's why I fucking hate identity politics.

Also thanks OP and sorry for the derailers. It was them and their ludicrous nitpicking while ignoring the real issues that send me up Mont Trans.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 21:54

Here's a tweet by Pride in London posted on the other thread. Lesbians are allowed to lead Pride if they promise to accept male dick:

twitter.com/PrideInLondon/status/1147516222499688449

Also posted on the other thread, 31% of lesbians don't feel welcome at Pride:

www.afterellen.com/general-news/570509-why-lesbians-no-longer-feel-welcome-at-pride-marches

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 22:02

Also thanks OP and sorry for the derailers

See, this is where these thread's get ridiculous.
Any questioning, any different viewpoints, any not just blindly following the majority view, it's "stop posting" "derailer" etc.
There was no derailers, just people asking questions or disagreeing with a point - which people are allowed to do.

CharlieParley · 07/07/2019 22:08

JFC what has happened to this thread?!

"The OP is an unreliable witness "?!

Are you fucking kidding me?

This is a thread about one person's impression of an event, not a court case!

The OP has shared her personal observations, which she stressed several times are just that - her very own individual impressions of how she experienced the part of Pride that she moved around in and witnessed.

She also explained that she guessed at marchers' sexuality based on markers like slogans, holding hands and kissing etc not or not merely on stereotypes of appearance.

As an aside, I had an interesting conversation with young lesbians recently who were talking about just that - how they as lesbians present themselves differently from their heterosexual friends. It was based on a range of things, including, surprisingly, a lot of stereotypes about mannerisms and appearance. Looking gender-non-conforming seems to be an important part of their identity. And given the near homogenous looks of the teens I see around me, I can understand that completely.

Does that mean all young lesbians can be spotted via such obvious markers? No, of course not. A majority? Who the hell knows, I sure don't. But stereotypes come into being because large numbers of people do conform to them. They're only a problem when you are expected to conform to them and a serious issue when those who do not conform are socially punished for that.

As for DecomposingComposers being told to "shut up" and then "silenced" or "de-platformed"

Good grief talk about exaggerating. She wasn't. It was a snarky reply to her own exasperated statement that she wasn't sure how to comment because she found the OP "an unreliable witness".

If you don't know what to say anyway and what you've done so far has been nothing more constructive than taking exception to someone else's personal impressions and nitpicking the expressions that person has used to share those, "then stop commenting" is a fairly logical response by any cynic.

If you can dish out accusations at another poster of being "an unreliable witness" in the context of this thread, you really should be able to take a bit of snark.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:08

It's awful that so many lesbians feel unwelcome at Pride, and that the Pride organisers decided to instruct lesbians on how they have to view trans if they want to take a lead in Pride.

Get the L out were far more honest and real last year. That's why they have to be silenced.

Supersimpkin · 07/07/2019 22:09

My lady trans mates went - they are women now, were men. Absolutely no way would any of them bawl out a lesbian, all are extremely well behaved and very funny and friendly.

Two of them, MTFs, were really shocked at some of the aggression on show from what they reckoned were straight men.

They all mourned the invasion of Pride by straights.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:11

How on earth does a man become a woman? It's literally impossible. Our sex is written into every single cell in our bodies by our chromosomes.

Loveislandaddict · 07/07/2019 22:11

@stucknoue - a gay work colleague said something similar to me a couple of years back.

@talkingaboutpride - your paragraph under the above quote is so true

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:12

They all mourned the invasion of Pride by straights.

Do they have wives or girlfriends?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 07/07/2019 22:12

Transgenderism has really stirred the poo for transsexuals. People are wary of the boundaries they are trying to push/smash.

littlbrowndog · 07/07/2019 22:12

Say what super ?

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 22:12

As for DecomposingComposers being told to "shut up" and then "silenced" or "de-platformed" Good grief talk about exaggerating

She was told to stop commenting. Why should she?
Just because it's getting called out for once instead of just sliding doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

littlbrowndog · 07/07/2019 22:14

How can you just turn into a woman super ?

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:14

She won't stop commenting anyway so it's a bit of a moot point.

Loveislandaddict · 07/07/2019 22:14

@supersimpkin

“They all mourned the invasion of Pride by straights.” Why?

Surely, it’s best that everyone supports gay and lesbian rights, whatever their sexually. Otherwise it’s preaching to the converted.