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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

321 replies

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 14:55

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin Wink

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

OP posts:
RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 16:24

"DecomposingComposers
I hardly saw many young gay men -
I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly

How could you tell what people's sexuality was? My dd went with 3 friends - so 2 women and 2 men. Would you have known by looking at them what their sexualities are?

Exactly, I mean what?! How would you know?! Unless they were wearing a t-shirt saying "I am A Lesbian" or something? Or dungarees? (JOKE)

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 16:43

@NeurotrashWarrior Grin at grey!!

@Oblomov19 I went because I wanted to see for myself. I had hoped that it wouldn't be the case, so in a way I am surprised, and in another no, of course I'm not. Nearly every other organisation has sold out to the T, why not pride. But I'm still not yet willing to give up on it as irrecoverable.

@DecomposingComposers

How could you tell what people's sexuality was? My dd went with 3 friends - so 2 women and 2 men. Would you have known by looking at them what their sexualities are?

If they were wearing an orientation slogan t-shirt, wearing lesbian/bi/gay/trans flag colors, holding hands, snogging or similar, then yes I would be fairly confident I had some idea of their status 😉 I wore nothing that gave away my own sexuality, and I went with a female friend so of course there were people who you couldn't tell, I was one of them! I was, however in the minority in that respect.

I saw hundreds of young men and women with trans flags. Young people of any other group, nowhere near as many. Very few young males in visible couples or wearing any sort of sign and a few more female couples (and some epic funny lesbian and bi t shirts!), whereas the prides that i went to years ago, nobody was in any doubt of anybody's status or orientation!

I saw very few young male couples.

OP posts:
DecomposingComposers · 07/07/2019 17:00

But my dd and her friends were all just wearing ordinary clothes, they weren't identifiable by what they wore and I bet a good number of others were the same.

I really doubt you could accurately guage the sexuality of the people just because they weren't being obvious about it.

Hulo · 07/07/2019 17:02

I went yesterday as well. I enjoyed it, great atmosphere, lots of happy people.
My observations:
I suspect Pride had been distributing flags to the marchers to carry. Many looked as if they had been produced by the same manufacturer. I saw the rainbow flag with black and brown stripes - I had thought this superfluous but actually seeing it, as a WOC, I found myself appreciating the nod and the deliberate inclusion. I don't think it should become the norm particularly but to have some is okay.

I saw more bi flags than I've ever seen before with a scattering of ones I wasn't sure about. This is one reason why I think flags had been given out.

Trans flags were the second most common. It was noticeable that most were not carried by trans people (or at least showed no evidence of being trans - hard to tell these days). Many of the floats had trans flags but, again, no evidence of trans people being there.

Where I was trans groups got among the loudest cheers. I noticed most comprised older transwomen. Outside this, there were many of the little transboys we're used to seeing, slight short-haired figures draped in trans flags.I saw far more transboys than the equivalent transgirls; I hardly saw any.

There were lesbian couples of all ages marching as part of various organisations but hardly any specific lesbian groups. There were also lesbian couples in the crowd.

It was mostly white. Black Pride is today, of course.

I saw some young male couples (and female) but most teenagers seemed to be in groups.

(how did I know they were couples - I went by holding hands or snogging!)

pinegreen · 07/07/2019 17:14

I accidentally went to Pride yesterday. We popped into town to have food in China Town & I had to visit a shop near Charing Cross so walked the length beside the parade to Trafalgar Square to watch for a little while.

What struck me was that the dominant crowd in the audience was younger millennial or Gen Z women. Obviously a number of gay and lesbian couples. Occasional family groups with young children. But overwhelmingly, mostly groups of young women in the audience.

On one hand I am so pleased that the next generation is completely accepting of sexual identity as that’s a big step forward. On the other hand, part of me wonders why it was mostly women participating in the audience yesterday. Where was everyone else?

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 17:31

@DecomposingComposers

Again, I know there were people there who you couldn't tell - I was one of them.

However, there were a great many people for whom you could make an informed guess about - because they wore a tshirt with slogan, badges, or were holding hands, or waving a particular flag or banner. Out of those people, I was surprised not to be able to identify as many younger gay men as other demographics and ages. That's all.

OP posts:
LonginesPrime · 07/07/2019 17:59

Lesbians have been deplatformed
Women have been deplatformed.

To be fair, I don't think lesbians/women ever had an equal place in Pride (or in most mixed LGBT spaces) in the first place.

Lots of lesbians at Pride often tend to gather in a few venues so you will find pockets of them around.

And there were loads of gay men there yesterday, I assure you!

KitKatKit · 07/07/2019 18:07

Lesbians have been deplatformed.
Women have been deplatformed.
Gender critical conversation not possible.
Feminism has been deplatformed.
Pride is for the T, the G are welcome and the L and B allowed if they're good. Allies allowed if good allies to T

I'm relatively new to this whole T discourse, but I appreciate your account OP.
Your view has just confirmed what I was already thinking, and it terrifies this generally liberal, millenial, person of colour.

AnnaMagnani · 07/07/2019 18:15

My experience of seeing people in real life is the same as yours.

People may pass very well in photos. But in real life the hips/shoulders and the movement/heights are a giveaway.

thedevondumpling · 07/07/2019 18:28

I know several women who are over 6ft, DHs family are tall. They have feet and hands to match. There are men in my family who are 5'6" tall and they also have the hands and feet to match. You seem to be a bit fixated on stereotypes.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't. So people who were obviously trans were obvious, who'd have guessed it. How do you know that you didn't see loads of trans people who did pass?

You didn't see many lesbians or young gay men, again how do you know? Did you ask every passing person to identify for you or are you again relying on some sort of stereotype?

I think it is hard to take alot of what you say seriously when some of it is so flawed.

Endofthedays · 07/07/2019 18:42

Obviously you can only identify people you see by what they look like!!

The OP didn’t see many people who looked like lesbians or young gay men.

Endofthedays · 07/07/2019 18:44

I would expect to see many visibly gay or lesbian young people at pride.

LonginesPrime · 07/07/2019 18:46

But what do lesbians and gay men look like?

Endofthedays · 07/07/2019 18:52

Seriously? You are completely unaware of common dressing styles of young lesbians and gay men?

Also, are they a. male b. young c. Kissing another man.

They’re probably a young gay man.

sakura184 · 07/07/2019 18:53

LonginesPrime

My gaydar is pretty good I think so anyway, from experience.
Maybe the OP thinks hers is good

Justhadathought · 07/07/2019 18:54

Some interesting accounts and observations, thanks!

'Pride' has had its day.......I recoil at the thought of attending these days.
Peter Tatchell much quoted as complaining that it has become regimented and commercialised; but the issues are far deeper and more profound than that.

CarolDanvers · 07/07/2019 18:56

How do you know that you didn't see loads of trans people who did pass?

Because they hardly ever do, no matter how much they try and convince themselves and others.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 18:58

"I have a penis... and I am a woman."

Oh god. And they get to stand on a platform and declare this to the crowd.

Thanks for reporting back OP.

sakura184 · 07/07/2019 18:59

How do you know that you didn't see loads of trans people who did pass?

She might have, but the point she's trying to make is she saw so many who blatantly didn't

Thingybob · 07/07/2019 19:00

Thanks for that really interesting account TalkingAboutPride

DecomposingComposers · 07/07/2019 19:00

I think it is hard to take alot of what you say seriously when some of it is so flawed

This.

Also, my dd has a lot of gay and lesbian friends - I shall have to talk to them about their lack of wearing the uniform. They look like all other young people. Maybe there is a "look" that some people adhere to but it's certainly not all so I don't get how you can judge the composition of a crowd by going on appearance alone.

It's like you were judging based on stereotypes.

thedevondumpling · 07/07/2019 19:03

The OP didn’t see many people who looked like lesbians or young gay men. You mean the stereotype of lesbians or young gay men. Lesbians and gay men vary as much as anyone else, it works the other way as well, I worked with a young woman who was constantly mistaken as gay, people would make comments about was there a nice young woman in her life etc. She was straight. I knew a policeman, back in the 80s when that wasn't common, and no one ever assumed he was gay but he was.

People think their gaydar works because they decide it has worked, so they correctly identify one gay man but 40 have walked past them without being spotted.

sakura184 · 07/07/2019 19:03

DecomposingComposers

I can only speak for lesbians but many style themselves a certain way to signal they are lesbian. Many others don't of course and look like any heterosexual woman. But I think the OP is trying to say she didn't see many lesbians who do signal their sexuality

LonginesPrime · 07/07/2019 19:05

Seriously? You are completely unaware of common dressing styles of young lesbians and gay men?

I'm quite aware of the stereotypes, having been told my whole adult life 'but you don't look like a lesbian' (as if I might somehow be mistaken). But it doesn't mean that people who aren't dressed in a stereotypical way aren't gay!

90% of the lesbians I was with yesterday didn't dress according to those stereotypes and neither did I, so the OP would have picked us all out as straight.

I just think the notion that there weren't many gay and lesbian people there yesterday is ridiculous.

thedevondumpling · 07/07/2019 19:06

She might have, but the point she's trying to make is she saw so many who blatantly didn't No she said "They don't pass." Collective. She didn't say, I saw people who didn't pass, or some people didn't pass, she was quite specific.

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