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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

321 replies

TalkingAboutPride · 07/07/2019 14:55

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin Wink

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

OP posts:
LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 07/07/2019 22:16

They just go for the party. Where were they 10,20,30 years ago?

Supersimpkin · 07/07/2019 22:17

Two of them have got husbands.

I don't want to ask too many personal questions about the various treatments and surgeries they've had, whatever's in someone else's pants isn't any of my business. There is such a thing as being polite.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 22:18

She won't stop commenting anyway so it's a bit of a moot point

Good, woman after my own heart then lol as I'm the same - if I'm told to shut up, stop talking or stop commenting makes me more likely to go "no, shan't" Grin

Supersimpkin · 07/07/2019 22:19

Well, yes, I don't think anyone objected to the straights being there, but it was felt that they were rather bringing the tone down with silly exhibitionism.

littlbrowndog · 07/07/2019 22:20

What were the straights doing

🤦‍♀️

Supersimpkin · 07/07/2019 22:21

Jumping on cars while stark naked.

littlbrowndog · 07/07/2019 22:22

Hahaha lols

littlbrowndog · 07/07/2019 22:23

Were any cars hurt in this jumping naked stuff?

littlbrowndog · 07/07/2019 22:24

And how could you tell they were straights

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:24

Good, woman after my own heart then lol as I'm the same - if I'm told to shut up, stop talking or stop commenting makes me more likely to go "no, shan't"

Indeed. The nitpicking will continue.

Supersimpkin · 07/07/2019 22:25

I wasn't there - by my DF's DH went up to one of them and told him to pack it in - the gang of lads said they were straight then.

Telly is too good, I'm off, sorry.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:26

I don't want to ask too many personal questions about the various treatments and surgeries they've had, whatever's in someone else's pants isn't any of my business. There is such a thing as being polite.

You don't really believe that there's an actual operation that can turn a man into a woman do you? That's fantasy thinking.

FloralBunting · 07/07/2019 22:29

How do you respond when asked to back up fairytale beliefs like males actually being female in some mystical inner sense? Cos I don't often tell people to shut up, don't think I've ever done it on here, but it's astounding how many times actual questions have been sidestepped with bullshit. Certain posters love a little piss and moan when others get exasperated with the juvenile shit, but they're always much less forthcoming when asked to back up their Genderist beliefs.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 22:31

You don't really believe that there's an actual operation that can turn a man into a woman do you? That's fantasy thinking.

As my post upthread said when a poster said about people needing a sit down and a chat about biology, people are perfectly able to know that transwomen aren't biologically women. It's not rocket science.

littlbrowndog · 07/07/2019 22:32

Haha at super. There’s fuck all on the telly

The straight lads nakid jumping on cars. That’s what straight lads do at pride then then someone’s blah blah blah blah
yeah super crack on with shite telly cos your made up story might actually be worse than Sunday night telly

Mermoose · 07/07/2019 22:32

Supersimpkin - whatever's in someone else's pants isn't any of my business
I've heard more or less this phrase a lot. It doesn't make any sense. If we didn't have a good idea what was in other people's pants, there would never have been a need for Pride in the first place. when you support same sex marriage, for example, you're acknowledging that you know some people are attracted to people with the same kind of genitals as themselves, and you think that's fine. If we're all going to get Victorian about it and pretend we have no idea what genitals are, I think we're going backwards.

Ereshkigal · 07/07/2019 22:33

If we didn't have a good idea what was in other people's pants, there would never have been a need for Pride in the first place. when you support same sex marriage, for example, you're acknowledging that you know some people are attracted to people with the same kind of genitals as themselves, and you think that's fine

Exactly.

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 22:33

Hang on. How come super's story is "made up" if it doesn't fit your narrative, but the OP's was taken as gospel by some in a "it's discustin!" way before anybody questioned anything?
They;'re both as likely to be as true as each other for all we know lol.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:37

"transwomen aren't biologically women."

Women don't have Y chromosomes. Not a single one of us.

"It's not rocket science."

No it's not is it? Because rocket science is based in material reality. You don't get a rocket off the ground using wishful thinking or an innate sense of rocketness. You have to use maths, engineering, technology and rocket fuel. Things that actually exist.

Why are you answering a question I directed at someone else BTW? Let them answer for themselves. You didn't appear to be making the claim, they were.

PurpleCrowbar · 07/07/2019 22:37

I'm a bit confused.

If someone 'was a man but is now a woman' - ok this is already confusing as can't happen - & then has a dh - ok that's fine...

...why would they be pissed off about 'straights' at Pride? Surely as far as they are concerned, they are themselves straight?

Understandable to be annoyed at naked people jumping on cars, but then the dh went over to remonstrate & the naked car jumpers explained that they were heterosexual...?

Still, it seems everyone agrees that lots of naked fellas had a top day out, & clearly that's the main thing...

RosesAndRaindrops · 07/07/2019 22:38

Why are you answering a question I directed at someone else BTW?

Because I thought it was a question you wanted answering, I didn't know nobody else was allowed to answer.

PurpleCrowbar · 07/07/2019 22:39

Or what littlbrowndog said! Grin

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:39

It matters quite a lot what's in our pants. The contents of women's pants and their potential for the creation of life are the reason men have decided to oppress us.

The contents of men's pants have been used as a weapon against women and children throughout the ages.

But lets get all coy about it when it suits the argument.

Erythronium · 07/07/2019 22:41

Um I asked it directly to her about her own beliefs, not yours. Why would you jump into that?

littlbrowndog · 07/07/2019 22:44

Rose the telly is crap on a Sunday.

No debate