I went to London Pride yesterday. Here is my account.

[TalkingAboutPride]

Regular poster here, name changed because I don't feel comfortable posting without anonymity. I'm a GC mumsnetter.

I went for the first time I've ever been to Pride in London. I moved here X years ago & have been to Pride in other cities. I had a great time - the atmosphere was mostly just fun, people were way more relaxed than anybody in London usually is, and I came home wishing the world was just a better place.

I watched a fair bit of the march. I went to several stages with music acts on. Went around a few stalls. Had my picture taken with a couple of famous people, as you do. Did a lot of people watching. Went to a few bars. Drank some gin

I've seen a few posts on here about a lot of fettishwear there and concerns about kids at pride seeing stuff that wasn't appropriate or indeed relevant to Pride. I hardly saw any leather and BDSM fetishwear, although I think that was perhaps because I didn't go to the areas that those things are more likely to be found. So, it certainly wasn't everywhere. I saw a few families with kids, and I don't think I saw the kids seeing anything in that way. I'm sure that stuff IS there, but it wasn't everywhere IYKWIM.

What struck me most was that the whole thing is tremendously skewed towards the T now. I know others on here have said Pride is now all about the lgbT and from what I saw I'd agree. By far the second most common flag I saw after the rainbow flag was the trans one. Lots of people wearing it, and what I thought was most weird was that often there would be a group in the march with rainbow flags, and the occasional trans flag dotted in that group.... but no others at all. I also don't think I saw a single lesbian, gay, bi or any other type of flag in the actual march apart from rainbow and trans ones. On individuals, yes, but not in the actual march. Of course it was huge and I didn't watch it all, so maybe it was just timing.

The other weird to me thing was that corporations and organisations who don't only serve the T, chose Trans flags to display instead of any rainbow ones. Obviously it's hugely commercial, but say, a high street bank or coffee shop would have a bus, float, or marchers, mainly to advertise but also to show that they are an inclusive employer... well, I cant remember specifics but some of them chose to do all trans flags and colours rather than rainbow. Most stuck to rainbow, but maybe 5-10% did trans only and maybe 30% had rainbow + trans and not others.

There is now a rainbow flag with black and brown added, to be inclusive of people of color. I saw several groups in the parade and around making the point that pride is centered on white people. The most commonly seen flag is still the one without those two colors.

I saw a lot of people with trans flags or colors on them. I haven't met many trans people, but seeing so many in one day made me notice how obvious there original sex always was. I'll try to get my language right. People of female sex have hips, and their facial expressions are softer. They're shorter. Even with no obvious chest they're female by silhouette. Male torsos don't have the same waist, and the bra lines you could see were in the wrong place and fitted wrong. Biological men are a different shape and they stand and move differently. Their voices, facial hair and bodies might have been shaped by taking hormones (but as a guess not many of them had surgery or hormones) but definitely not enough to pass. I now feel like I've seen first hand what not passing looks like. They don't. They just don't.

Body language - Young trans women were effeminate, curved shoulders, but hips and feet stood wider like a man. Young trans men standing arms close by sides and legs together. All the younger ones looking relaxed and happy to be there but not in their own skin - but I might be projecting.

Older trans men? I didn't see a single one. Maybe they pass better and don't go around with the flag, even at pride, but that's not my gut instinct. I don't think they were there.

Older trans women... well there were plenty of those. Some dressed conservatively in a longer dress and despite being at pride seemed nervous, keeping their chin tucked in like they were trying to hide. But most in bold patterns like flowers, leopard print, sequins, and skimpy or revealing outfits. Really high chunky heels. Fishnets. Bikinis. Big look at me eyelashes and make up colours. I mean, this was pride after all. They tended to stand with hips thrust forward, legs wide. Their walk was a striding male walk, even in heels, the type I'd associate with a hoodie wearing man at a football match. The type that as a woman seeing a male-dressed man walking like that I'd have clocked him a mile off and made sure to avoid eye contact, maybe changed my route. The type of body language that frankly I feel unsafe around.

They gave off an air that I felt uncomfortable around, totally different to the young trans people. I chatted to loads of people, that's just who I am and the type of day it was, and I felt happy with and warmed quickly to the young trans people the same as I did with anybody overtly out as lesbian, bi or gay or anybody who didn't advertise. Mostly the young trans people just seemed to be the same people I'd have hung around with and been myself as a teenager - rejecting gender stereotypes and finding themselves. I'm just really sad that it seems like this generation are identifying into a different gender and making physical changes to their bodies, because it just seems to me if only "gender bending" was normal to them like it was back in the day, where boys experimented with eyeliner and dresses and girls could wear t shirt and jeans and none of it was batted an eye lid at, then these young people would be happier in their own skin and not feeling like they were born in the wrong body :/

I hardly saw many young gay men - again perhaps I was just in a different part of London to them? 40+ year old male couples were around. No flags, a few t shirts.

I saw a few lesbians, young women mainly. Again no flags, a few t shirts. They seemed to be keeping a fairly low profile.

I want to talk about the stages and acts the most. I'll press post on this then add it as a comment.

oops Sorry i’m not sure if I was allowed to add the link to the GFM for the event

Fairly sure, though hope not, that march will be dominated by male 'lesbians'. So straight blokes.

Actual lesbians are both the most horrifically bigoted people on the planet yet still people who if you let them gather absent men, you never know what will happen! So male people have to push their way into any lesbian space or gathering or group. So yeah, moth to a flame.

Maybe I am being too negative and it will be all women. I can hope, at least.

I didn’t go to any pride events but my friend who did posted a lot of pictures of her with dozens of other lesbians.

None of the pictures show anyone identifying their orientation via their t shirts, but maybe you were in a different area.

I did ask her if pride felt inclusive to her as I’d heard of hostility towards lesbians atm in LGBT, she replied ‘Great day. Will be washing glitter out of me for weeks, who have you been taking too?! ’ so I guess quite a different experience.

What’s the Emmeline Pankhurst thing? I’m confused as to the correlation? Is it relating to the fact half of men weren’t able to vote either or is there a back story too it?

I thought drag sat under Stonewall's trans umbrella.

I believe it does. Tough luck if you just see it as a job. Like being an opera singer or actor.

I thought drag sat under Stonewall's trans umbrella.

It does. Along with so many other things that 'transgender' is literally a meaningless label that anyone can claim.

I've been told it's true lesbians only.

Yes I wasn't sure about linking the crowd finder

No the man in stereotyped little girls' clothing hasn't been addressed Jessica. Neither have we heard what else apart from biology makes a woman or a man.

I've also heard stories from lesbians about what a good day they had, with no mention of hostility or being made to feel unwelcome. There are bound to be pockets of various hostilities at such a big event - there were a couple of groups who wanted to march but were not allowed to do so because they hadn't registered. In fact, they were allowed, eventually, to join the back of the parade. (I don't know that these groups were specifically opposed to the inclusion of anyone else: I think one lot's view was that they simply shouldn't have to pay to parade). There are some veteran activists who think that the whole thing is too big and too commercial - and quite a few who object to the 'rainbow-washing' where large companies with at least a questionable record on human rights think that slapping some glitter and rainbow hearts on a truck and sending their staff along in Love Is Love t-shirts makes their unfair employment practices OK. And you will sometimes get tension between the 'respectable' gays and the outrageous ones.
But Pride overall seems to have been remarkably free of violence.

And one thing I remember from last year's parade is when I was queuing for a toilet - some of us had gone into a pub rather than brave the portaloos - and people were Not Segragating According To Birth Sex. Someone said, do you think anyone will mind, and someone else said, I think right now we are all just identifying as people who want the loo. And it was goodhumoured and reasonable and sensible.

we are all just identifying as people who want the loo. And it was goodhumoured and reasonable and sensible.
ReanimatedSGB I'm just wondering, do you think that unisex toilets are always ok? Does it concern you that some schoolgirls are staying away from school when they have their periods, or aren't drinking throughout the day so they don't need to use the toilets? Do you think the report below is misrepresenting the facts, or do you think that this is happening, but it doesn't matter, or do you think that mixed toilets are fine in some instances but not in others?
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/pupils-missing-school-because-dont-15839558

^ I'm not SGB, and I’m not presuming to answer on her behalf, but surely it’s different depending on how much choice girls/women have about using the toilet. Pub toilets in central London where there are plenty of other options within a few minutes’ walk? Very different from school toilets where that’s the only option for maybe 6+ hours of the day.

Someone said, do you think anyone will mind, and someone else said, I think right now we are all just identifying as people who want the loo. And it was goodhumoured and reasonable and sensible.

Oh gosh, how lovely. Damn those pesky women and girls who have been assaulted or confronted in toilets and want their female spaces huh? They should get a sense of humour

NellWilsonsWhiteHair Yes, I think sometimes it can have more or less of an impact, depending on the situation. Although I think in most cases, mixed-sex toilets disadvantage women.
I also think it's quite easy to think it's fine because you haven't heard the reasons why we really need single sex toilets. And I also think if you're in a crowd that's spent all day partying together and has a friendly vibe about it, you'll see the presence of those men differently to how they'd be seen by, say, a woman on her own who doesn't know them at all.

Pub toilets in central London where there are plenty of other options within a few minutes’ walk?

Being able to go to the loo at pride was a major event! I went into a pub to avoid the long portaloo queues too, still took me a good 40 minutes to wait to cross the parade, get to a loo,queue, pee and get back, including brief negotiation with the staff member who initially said it was for customers only. No issues where I went, but if I'd have felt uncomfortable or couldn't have used that toilet for any reason I'd have had another 20 minutes minimum to get to another loo cubicle in a nearby establishment, and upwards of 30 minutes to get back to where the portaloos were and wait to get to the front of the queue, so practicalities meant that in my experience it wasn't as easy to reach an alternative loo as you say.

On a normal day in London the queues wouldn't be so long and getting around wouldn't be such a lengthy process, but if I'm honest I find it weird that the suggested answer to women feeling uncomfortable/unsafe in the women's loo because there a man in there is for women to find an alternative place to pee in an entirely different building.

Mermoose: that's a fairly unsubstantiated story put out by a pressure group focussed on anti-trans scaremongering. Most people's thoughts regarding toilets are along the lines of: is the toilet clean, is there a long queue, do I have to pay? Not 'Might I encounter someone who looks like they could be trans?'
When it comes to school toilets, they have long been known as potential bullying hotspots (because they are unsupervised, 'private' spaces). I remember 'period shaming' from my own school days 40 years ago, at a single-sex school. There is at least a partial initiative to change the designs of school toilets to reduce bullying in general which some people may be interpreting as the influence of the evil trans lobby.

Most people's thoughts regarding toilets are along the lines of: is the toilet clean, is there a long queue, do I have to pay? Not 'Might I encounter someone who looks like they could be trans?'

You don’t speak for everyone else, you certainly don’t speak for me or any of the people in my life who are absolutely against giving males access to female bathrooms. What many girls and women do fear, is males in our toilets, regardless of how they ‘identify’. I couldn’t give a fuck if they’re trans or not, I do care if they’re male. It’s not ‘anti-trans’ to want to protect FEMALE spaces.

Most people's thoughts regarding toilets are along the lines of: is the toilet clean, is there a long queue, do I have to pay?

So why are signs put up on the entrance to toilets informing women that a man is currently inside cleaning the toilets?

So why are signs put up on the entrance to toilets informing women that a man is currently inside cleaning the toilets?

Very good point.

that's a fairly unsubstantiated story put out by a pressure group focussed on anti-trans scaremongering
Great. So, as you may be aware, on this topic few people are willing to speak out publicly. So the quotes from parents and staff are anonymous. So you assume they are made up.
Have you ever thought of a career in the Catholic church, managing their PR on child abuse? They'd love you.

There were two men cleaning the toilets i was in the other day

There was a very clear sign outside

But i did wonder why it needed two of them...obviously wasnt a problem , it was a very busy toilet

But it may have been unnerving for someone if they were alone in the toilet with two male cleaners

I imagine they do it in pairs so they can get the fuck out more quickly.

this isn't "unsubstantiated"

It's a second sex offence, against another child, in female toilets by the same offender.

Who is now living in a women's hostel despite a history of sex offences against vulnerable females.

But aye, we're all just nasty transphobes who have absolutely no relevant points at all and there's no way that self ID would lead to male predators having easy access to women's spaces.

I mean, it's not like its ever happened eh?

ReanimatedSGB I just want to say - I think it's likely that you're motivated by the desire to look out for people who are vulnerable. But you're not listening to all voices. I think you've decided upfront that trans people win out as the most vulnerable, and that women and girls will 'manage'. But I think what you're doing, despite yourself, is leaving very vulnerable people in bad situations, and putting your fingers in your ears when they try to tell you about it.

The answer to reducing bullying in school toilets isn't removing girls' rights to privacy from males.

Nice try, but there's a fucking great elephant - the needs of girls - in that room, thanks.