Caster Semanya statement and transwoman in sport

[Binglebong]

This is NOT about CS but about a statement made by the IAAF with regard to her. I hope that it can be used with regards to the issue of transwomen competing against women in sport. In fact, I don't see how it could be otherwise given they have banned CS.

"The IAAF considers that the DSD regulations are a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics, and the Cas agreed."

It's the bit protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics that is particularly relevant, they obviously do recognise there is a fairness issue with the different bodies that males and females have.

I would be really interested to hear people's thoughts.

This us the original article.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/48678230

I agree with the IAAF. I think their original statement was along the lines of acknowledging that their ruling was discriminatory but necessary to preserve the integrity of women's sports.

I feel very sorry for Semenya - it must be awful to have very private medical information about yourself in the public domain, and have your dsd discussed by all and sundry.

I also agree with Semenya that she should take testosterone. It's short and long term side effects are awful.

Her options at the moment are to race at another distance or to run in men's races, as I see them. I do understand how 'unfair' it seems to her - she can't help her dsd - but it would be less 'fair' to permit the boundaries of women's sport to be compromised in this way.

Also - women were banned from running the Olympic 800m for most of the 20th century as they were thought too frail. Women have had to fight long and hard to even have women categories for sport, which always come second best, in terms of status, prestige, sponsorship, air time and prize money to men's.

It's vital that they're not eroded.

hey obviously do recognise there is a fairness issue with the different bodies that males and females have

Not really considering they still allow male bodies with internal testes and with XY DSDs that still allow for androgen sensitivity to be eligible to compete as “females” in the female classification: in some categories only if they lower testosterone to still above average ranges for women, and in other categories with no restrictions at all.

I also agree with Semenya that she should take testosterone. It's short and long term side effects are awful

Huh?

Caster does not need to take testosterone, they produce it (via their internal testes) and are sensitive to it on their own.

I have two questions:

1. Do the testosterone suppressant drugs bring Semenya’s levels in line with normal female levels?

1. Why is it OK for Semenya to race, unmedicated, over longer distances?

1. Do the testosterone suppressant drugs bring Semenya’s levels in line with normal female levels?

The “testosterone suppressant” is basically a birth control pill. And no. From what I have seen they are not even required to bring it that low. The target range is still higher than normal female range.

2. Why is it OK for Semenya to race, unmedicated, over longer distances?

Great question. I don’t have the answer because mine would be “it’s not”. But basically it came down to they had not done enough research to justify the DSD regulations applying to longer distances. They have not ruled it out though.

I do understand how 'unfair' it seems to her

Life's unfair. I want to be a high jumper but I'm too short. Sometime your physical body is such that you can't do what you want.

From the IAAF FAQs

1. Why do the regulations only cover events between 400m to the mile?

Based on the science, the IAAF considers that 46 XY DSD athletes would have an advantage in all events based on their levels of testosterone in the male range. However, the evidence to date indicates that track events run over distances between 400m to one mile are where the most performance-enhancing benefits can be obtained from elevated levels of circulating testosterone, i.e., both from the extra strength and power derived from the increases in muscle mass and strength, and from the extra oxygen transfer and uptake derived from the increased haemoglobin in the blood.

Therefore, taking a conservative approach, to allow DSD athletes to compete in the gender with which they identify as far as possible without restriction, the new Regulations only apply to track events between 400m and one mile (and only to international competitions). However, the revised Regulations expressly confirm that the IAAF Health & Science Department will keep this under review. If future evidence or new scientific knowledge indicates that there is good justification to expand or narrow the number of events affected by the Regulations, it will propose such revisions to the IAAF Council.

Haworthia/Feministcat

I am trying to find an Instagram post from an Australian woman athlete explaining that stamina is hugely beneficial in the 800m. She argued that women with elevated testosterone levels were more advantaged at that distance than in the shorter distances. Will keep on hunting to see if I can unearth it.

I agree with the statement. I do really feel for Caster. I’ll always respect and accept her as a woman - her parents thought she was a girl, no one realised she was XY until much later.

Also, other women with DSDs (including a Mumsnetter) have said some of the commentary (people referring to CS as a “man” etc) has been devastating to them, and I don’t think it’s necessary.

For women’s sport as a whole though, these regulations are necessary and I agree with the statement.

2. Why is it OK for Semenya to race, unmedicated, over longer distances?

This is the most ridiculous thing to me.

What the ruling implies is that her sex varies according to the distance she runs.

Semenya is biologically and genetically a man. She just has undescended testes.

She has gone through male puberty. She has no ovaries or uterus.

always - see above posts for rationale. Doesn’t mean her sex varies; means the advantages if her sex vary (ie that testosterone is more important over short distances).

I’m glad it’s not just me who can’t understand why Semenya can’t race the 800/1500m anymore, but the 5000m, say, is fine.

It’s not like she still won’t be at a massive advantage.

Lowering her testosterone a bit seems like BS to me too. Even lowering testosterone to normal female levels wouldn’t even be enough, would it? Semenya would still have a “male” physique and “male” musculature. If it isn’t fair for a transwoman to compete alongside women (let’s just ignore the depressingly fact that they do) then it will always be unfair for Semenya, and other athletes with DSD, to compete alongside women.

Yes, it’s unfair that Semenya faces losing her career over this. It isn’t her fault that she spent most of her life undiagnosed. That still doesn’t mean that athletes with DSD can wipe the floor in women’s sport.

I understand say that Caster is genetically male (XY), but with a DSD that means she is disadvantaged vis-a-vis men, but advantaged vis-a-vis other women.

Could the para Olympics include a category for those with DSDs?

I understand say that Caster is genetically male (XY), but with a DSD that means she is disadvantaged vis-a-vis men, but advantaged vis-a-vis other women

How is Caster disadvantaged vis-a-vis men by their DSD in any other way that not all men will be podium finishers or even top 100 finishers? Is everyone entitled to win, now?

And I also note your use of “vis-a-vis men” and “vis-a-vis other women”.

Could the para Olympics include a category for those with DSDs?

Again, why? How is Caster “disabled” by their DSD that puts them at a disadvantage to other able bodied men?

This, for reference, is the DSD Caster has according to the full Cas report:

ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/5-alpha-reductase-deficiency

5-alpha reductase deficiency is a condition that affects male sexual development before birth and during puberty. People with this condition are genetically male, with one X and one Y chromosome in each cell, and they have male gonads (testes). Their bodies, however, do not produce enough of a hormone called dihydrotestosterone (DHT). DHT has a critical role in male sexual development, and a shortage of this hormone disrupts the formation of the external sex organs before birth.

Many people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency are born with external genitalia that appear female. In other cases, the external genitalia do not look clearly male or clearly female (sometimes called ambiguous genitalia). Still other affected infants have genitalia that appear predominantly male, often with an unusually small penis (micropenis) and the urethra opening on the underside of the penis (hypospadias).

During puberty, an increase in the levels of male sex hormones leads to the development of some secondary sex characteristics, such as increased muscle mass, deepening of the voice, development of pubic hair, and a growth spurt. The penis and scrotum (the sac of skin that holds the testes) grow larger. Unlike many men, people with 5-alpha reductase deficiency do not develop much facial or body hair. Most affected individuals are unable to have biological children without assisted reproduction.

I just don’t see how having external genitalia that did not form as usual puts Caster at an athletic disadvantage vis-a-vis males.

Full Cas report at:

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Award_-redacted-_Semenya_ASA_IAAF.pdf

Could the para Olympics include a category for those with DSDs?

I’ve lost count of how many DSDs there are. Where would you even begin to divide them up? A category for Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome and subdivisions for different degrees of Partial Androgen Insensitivity? Congenital adrenal hyperplasia? Turner’s Syndrome? Klinefelter’s? The Paralympics would go on forever.

Because she is not just “XY” like men, but XY(DSD) which has a specific impact on physical performance, as I understand it.

And it seems relevant (unlike Phelps and his lactic asset) because sports are categorised on sex categories (and not on lactic acid production). Hence wondering if DSD athletes could have a special category.

Yes I regard someone in Caster’s position as genetically male, but socially a woman.

Oops slow typing by me - that was in response to comment upthread

*which has a specific impact on physical performance, as I understand it”

There are many DSDs. What do you understand Caster’s has on physical performance because there is nothing to actually support it does. I posted a description of Caster’s particular DSD above.

DSD athletes are not a “third sex”.

Won’t get into it, but little out there shows Caster still goes “socially” as a woman. It seems limited to the track....

Tbf, if trans women are allowed to compete, then Caster definitely should be allowed to compete. This is unfair.

I fully agree intersex is not a third sex. No one in the para-Olympics is a third sex either, but they have conditions which affect physical performance... which I understood Caster’s condition did too - thought I saw an explanation on MRKH’s twitter, but now can’t find it. If I’m wrong on that I’ll defer.

I get that Caster presents extremely “male” socially. But I have known some (very) butch lesbians who were similar. They are still women.

The idea that women should present a certain way is contributing to “butch” teenage girls transitioning to live as boys - as society seems to accept them more that way.

I acknowledge the complexities here.

But they have conditions which affect physical performance... which I understood Caster’s condition did too

Caster and their supporters want you to think that, but again that is all they say. Generalities. There is nothing to say why they think that, because certainly the DSD does not indicate that. Caster’s performance certainly does not indicate that. Having malformed external genitalia does not affect athletic performance. Yes, if you compare Caster’s times to males they aren’t as impressive, but that is the case for most males. Most males are not going to be competing on the level international competition.

But I have known some (very) butch lesbians who were similar. They are still women.

Butch lesbians are still women. Just as males (XY persons) who prefer to present as more “feminine” are still men.

I am not sure I understand your comparison here. Caster is not a butch lesbian because Caster is an XY male with an XY DSD married to a woman who herself identifies as heterosexual.

You are the one that said Caster is “socially a woman” - so that must mean something to you based on how you see them “present socially”.

I don’t think women should have to “present” any certain way at all. But you are the one who has said Caster is “socially a woman” which indicates you are the one who thinks socially they present as something that makes them a “woman”.

Caster is XY, whether they present as “masculine” or “feminine”, that does not change.

As far as I understand the best practice recommendations for DSDs say the individual should make the decision about whether they choose to live socially as male or female. I realise this has led to this sort of idea being used to justify that approach for everyone, but there seem to be very good reasons to do it that way for DSDs.