Caster Semanya statement and transwoman in sport

[Binglebong]

This is NOT about CS but about a statement made by the IAAF with regard to her. I hope that it can be used with regards to the issue of transwomen competing against women in sport. In fact, I don't see how it could be otherwise given they have banned CS.

"The IAAF considers that the DSD regulations are a necessary, reasonable and proportionate means of protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics, and the Cas agreed."

It's the bit protecting fair and meaningful competition in elite female athletics that is particularly relevant, they obviously do recognise there is a fairness issue with the different bodies that males and females have.

I would be really interested to hear people's thoughts.

I disagree. This is a terrible ruling for women with DSDs.

She is legally female, was from birth raised as female and was identified as female at birth. This has nothing to do with trans issues. She is a women with a medical condition.

We don't know exactly what DSD she has, but the most likely group of disorders are those which would have meant that she would have the full outward appearance of a women, including a vagina, but with internal testis and no uterus or ovaries.

This is a terrible ruling. She deserves the support of the GC feminist community.

She is a women with a medical condition.

A woman with no ovariies fallopian tubes, uterus, cervix or vagina, but with a pair of functioning testes?

She is a women with a medical condition.

Caster is a biological XY male with a DSD leading to underdevelopment of male genitalia and normal male levels of testosterone from internal testes.

It’s not fair for Caster to compete against women who don’t even approach such testosterone levels and don’t have the physiological advantages that testosterone brings.

Caster has 5 alpha reductase deficiency, has virilised from testosterone at puberty and in no way has the “full outward appearance of a woman”. Not a single cell in caster’s body is female.

I don’t know what medical care is like where she was raised but unless investigated by doctors, why would she assume anything other than that she is female. She was recorded and identified as female at birth, presumably because she appeared to have female genitalia.

How can you critique trans people saying that they live as the opposite sex and then say that she now lives as a man? What does this mean? Clothing? Behaviour? What?

People are speculating about what her genitals look like and that ‘we don’t know she doesn’t have a penis’. There seems no basis for this. She is not a transwoman.

I have heard the interview about women and girls and boys’. She say nothing different from many other women categorised as ‘tomboys’ would say- ie having more in common with boys and men. Loads of girls would want to wear boys’ uniform E.g. if the girls uniform did not include trousers.

Caster has also said on various occasions that she sees herself as female and her family does too. Can I ask whether Caster is an exception or whether you would refuse to use female pronouns for all persons with DSD? What if they had worn their school-dress religiously?

The issue isn’t social identification. It’s fairness in sport, and for the purposes of sport Caster is biologically male with male physical advantages (testes producing testosterone and virilisation at puberty).

‘we don’t know she doesn’t have a penis’. There seems no basis for this

There is a basis for this. She has 5 alpha reductase deficiency.

And girls in SA in the nineties did not routinely wear the male uniform.

I have no problem using female pronouns for her btw, if thats what she publicly states she wants (as with anyone with a DSD and reasonable/post op trans people). But I dont think of her as female (due to the way she behaves off the track, not becasue she has a DSD) and I dont think she should be racing in women's races. She clearly went through a male puberty and benefited and still benefits from male levels of testosterone.

If Caster has a biologicaly male intersex disorder, then Caster should race in the mens race.
If not, why not?

If caster is legally female, then that is her choice.

You don't get to choose your biological sex.

You shouldn't get to choose your legal sex to gain unfair advantages over others born into this

We don't know exactly what DSD she has

Sigh. How many times does it have to be repeated?

CASTER SEMENYA HAS 5 ALPHA REDUCTASE DEFICIENCY.

I blame the media for repeating the tired trope of “woman with naturally high testosterone levels”. This is false.

nolongersurprised I am not talking about fair competing. I am talking about the many people on here who refuse to use female pronouns for Caster.

If Caster has a biologicaly male intersex disorder, then Caster should race in the mens race.
If not, why not?

Caster isn’t fast enough to win against other biological males. Caster also doesn’t win when the male levels of testosterone are reduced, hence the wanting to “run free” comments.

I don't think I've ever heard anyone use male pronouns for CS? Where did you see that?

Caster has not had internal testes removed even though that is recommended for health reasons for people with her condition.

With better medicine, Caster's condition would have been detected at birth and she would have been raised as a boy.

If biologically male AFAB people (actual legitimate use of that acronym!) are allowed to compete in women's sports, then there is an incentive for them and their families and communities not to get the correct diagnosis and treatment for their condition. And we know it is a strong incentive, athletic coaches have been going out trying to recruit kids with DSDs.

The other way it's not just unfair to all the female-bodied athletes, who stand no chance of winning against people who have undergone a testosterone-based puberty. It's also setting up people with DSDs to be exploited and deprived of medical care.

We do not know exactly what DSD she has. And even if people on here have special knowledge that she has 5-alpha reductase deficiency, they still don't know what her genitalia look like. People need to stop pretending.

We don't get to choose our sex. For a small number of people with DSDs, "assigning a sex" is difficult. She looked female, was raised female and competes as female. The decision about her sex was made at birth by doctors. No one on this forum has given any reason why that was the wrong decision.

Are we genuinely going to test babies for sex chromosomes and tell people who to all outward appearances will grow up female, with breasts, a vagina and cervix, that they have to share male spaces and services? Can you imagine putting teen girls in that position?

I'm genuinely shocked to hear that people who would describe themselves as gender critical say that being a butch lesbian is evidence that someone who has been identified as a women with a DSD by her family and doctors is probably really a man.

I am a gender critical radical feminist and I'm happy to accept Caster as my sister.

"She is legally female, was from birth raised as female and was identified as female at birth. This has nothing to do with trans issues. She is a women with a medical condition."

Caster is 46 XY DSD, and it really doesn't matter what Caster was identified as. Caster has all the advantages of going through a male puberty, because Caster has internal testes.
Caster should not be allowed to compete with XX women.
This is a very simple matter of biology, and the IAAF have been aware of Caster's condition since 2009.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

We do not know exactly what DSD she has. And even if people on here have special knowledge that she has 5-alpha reductase deficiency, they still don't know what her genitalia look like. People need to stop pretending.

We know EXACTLY: This is the full report. Read it.

www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/CAS_Award_-redacted-_Semenya_ASA_IAAF.pdf

The exact appearance of her external genitalia is immaterial, no one is interested and no one has a right to know. But with known 5ARD we know 100% that they aren’t female genitalia.

The decision about her sex was made at birth by doctors. No one on this forum has given any reason why that was the wrong decision.

okay, I have to ask. You don't think the fact that Caster went through male puberty is evidence that it was the "wrong decision?"

People who went through male puberty shouldn't compete in female sports, because that completely destroys the purpose of female sports.

I would happily accept her or any other AFAB person as a woman in any other context - although there does seem to be some evidence that sport is the only context where Caster identifies as a woman.

Are we genuinely going to test babies for sex chromosomes and tell people who to all outward appearances will grow up female, with breasts, a vagina and cervix,

Caster doesn’t have breasts, a complete vagina or a cervix though. Even CAIS doesn’t give you a full vagina and a cervix.

It’s all very well to embrace her as your “sister” in feminism but caster is a biological male with testes and testosterone levels that female athletes can never ever approach. If caster, as an XY biological male, competes in female elite races then female elite athletes lose. Are they not your “sisters” too? Or are your “sisters” athletic achievements not equally important?

The decision about her sex was made at birth by doctors. No one on this forum has given any reason why that was the wrong decision.

We do not know when Semenya first saw a doctor, but it’s not guaranteed that being born poor in South Africa that she was seen by one at birth. The decision to record the sex as female was a mistake in hindsight, but without knowing how things were at birth we don’t know how much of a mistake. It could have been an easy mistake to make or a significant oversight.

Are we genuinely going to test babies for sex chromosomes and tell people who to all outward appearances will grow up female, with breasts, a vagina and cervix

Semenya has none of these things.

It doesn’t matter what happened at birth. Or why virilisation and lack of periods wasn’t investigated in the teenage years. What matters is what we know now: that Semenya is biologically male and shouldn’t be allowed to compete against females. And it matters that this was known 10 years ago and she was allowed to compete despite that knowledge, denying women in the process.

Sorry, I can't see where in that report it says that she has 5 ARD. I've scanned through it but ot's not a searchable document. Which page is it on?

As I've said, it seems pretty clear that she has a DSD which has given her a largely female appearance. Most DSDs of that type would make her insensitive to "male hormones", so many of the concerns here don't arise. It's difficult to say because I don't know exactly what DSD she has.

What I read in the judgment makes me desperately sad for the way this young women has been treated.

What do you call someone born and raised a girl who has grown into a women and identifies as a lesbian? Caster is a women.

If people want sex to be determined entirely on chromosomes, I believe that ignores most of what makes us women and binds us. Biology is important, but biology isn't based on a single marker like chromosomes. It would also represent a massive injustice to intersex people, many of whom already suffer significant physical and social problems. I will never support that position. It's wrong.

I can't find any information that gives a clear indication on whether she is sensitive to male hormones in a way that would have led to a "male puberty". I'm not trying to provoke people, but I genuinely can't find any reputable source that gives any detailed information on her condition. There is a lot of speculation out there.

Boom it’s rife on other threads about Caster and people on this thread are refusing to use the female pronoun, using ‘them’ instead.

I'm from a very sporty family (both playing and watching) and I've seen Caster interviewed loads of times. I would agree that the only time she appears to see herself as female is when she's choosing who to compete against.

Please read the information linked for you Kistanbul, refusing to read something thoroughly and then arguing that it's not true because you didn't read it a bit frustrating.

Sorry, I can't see where in that report it says that she has 5 ARD. I've scanned through it but ot's not a searchable document. Which page is it on?

Read it. Fully. Don’t scan it. That’s what I did. There is no excuse for ignorance on this matter because it’s all there in that report.

But as a starter, page 28, page 32, page 38. 56, 60 and 61.

Also, you may want to welcome her as your 'sister', but I very much doubt that she would accept as she considers women have nothing of interest to say. We are quite boring apparently.